Whats a fair price?

[Berks Liberty]

I'm trying to get an idea as to a fair price for putting together a Kit rifle for someone.  He wants a Lancaster style with a brass patchbox.  Nothing really fancy but not to simple.  I was going to say around $150 to $200 to put it all together. 

Jason

[Lucky R A]

 Can you do it in 10 hours?

[Keb]

Add the parts cost up (retail).
Guess what the gun will be worth when finished.
Subtract parts from finished price.
Don't forget shipping :/

Most guns have between maybe $400 & $700 in parts depending on wood & suppliers.
Look at what other people are asking for their guns.
Scary, ain't it.

[Dave B]

If you not careful you can go hungry in a hurry. I agreed to put together a "kit" for a gent who bought all the parts him self, so it really wasn't a kit but a mess of parts. the problem came when I assumed that all the parts were meant to go together. The stock looked right for a Hawken, I had built four from TOW parts previously. I qoted what I though a fair price and he agreed to let me take over. The stock did not have the barrel inlet deep enough by 3/16" but the esscutions were inlet to match the barrel channel depth. So when I inlet the barrel to the right depth the under lugs were going to have to be custom made to pass the wedge at the height of the bottom flat. What a mess. I should have doubled the price for the hassle it was to finally get it together for him. The wood was very nice curly maple but what a PITA to drop that barrel an additional 3/16". The only saving grace was the lock was inlet correctly.

[Berks Liberty]

I see what you're saying.  I pushed him to pick a kit from TOW or Jim Chambers.  I really like Jim's locks.  I did tell him to let me know exactly where he was going to get the parts from so I could talk a look before he bought them.  It's still a hobby right now so I'm not planning on going hungry but I see what was said about the barrel not fitting properly.  Should be interesting.   

[smylee grouch]

Dont settle for less than $500 for the labor not counting the patch box and add at least $100 for that.     Gary

[stubshaft]

Sit down with a pencil and paper and do a time estimate of each process involved such as fitting buttplate, sanding stock, browniing metal etc.  You will shortly find that charging as little as $10.00 @ hour will add up very fast.

It is a labor of love.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

How much do you need to make in an hour x the number of hours for the build?  Is your spare time not worth more to you than the time you spend on the job?  Mine is!  You probably can't handle what I'd charge, so I'll leave it a blank.

...a labour of love.  Of course it is.  On the other hand, the client can't/won't do it.  He wants to pay you for something he can't/won't do.  How much is your time worth?

[bob in the woods]

It is hard to get a straight up answer because of the many variables. So..I'll jump right in and eliminate the variables.  A chambers fowler kit. You know pretty much what you are getting and what to expect as far as work goes. I charge $1200.00    One fellow said that he found someone who would do it for $700.
I said "great"  I'd rather do my own stuff. 

[billd]

You said put it together, does that mean only assembled?  In the white, final sanding and brass polishing not done?  No carving, no engraving.  I just did a Chambers New England Fowler.  "Assembled" in about 20 hours of my leisure time.  With no patch box.  I could have done it quicker but I work at whatever pace suits me that day. 

Bill

[bgf]

I'll give you $250 for every kit you assemble, pending inspection:).  Seriously, you can't make money charging that and it sounds like a ho-hum project (is it an Isaac Haines or a Jacob Dickert:)?), so unless the "customer" is like a brother to you, pass or charge at least 3x that.  If you really like him (or her I suppose), forget the money and help them put it together and finish it.

[Berks Liberty]

Yesterday I sent him some suggestions.  Right now he is looking at different kits.  Thanks to everyone for bringing me back to earth on the build price.  He's not a brother so I'll throw out a nice dollar amount and see what he wants to do.  I told him the amount would also depend on what kind of kit and how much work needed to be done to it, i.e. patchbox, inlay work, fitting etc.   

Jason

[ottawa]

The replies you got are spot on I was shocked at a $20 fee to tap a drum for a nipple but when the realaity light is flipped on  that's not that big a price but when your talking about a higher level of skill such as putting a ML together  and doing it right then you know what your time is worth one place I sell some of the things I blacksmith say at least $20 an hour not including material cost .how much time  it took you to learn this skill .your cost for the tools and other material such as sand papper sharpening stone drills tap's exct.

[northmn]

Don't just add in the time but also we tend to have specialized tools.  I got burned out a few years back doing things like that, possibly because I did not charge enough, but also because not all hobbies are good money makers.   Things like getting things done in a reasonable time also enter in.  Personally I would charge more than $20.00 an hour because I really do not want the work but would do it if the person is really serious.  You will also have little things like finishing materials.  I just finished my little poor boy and the time it took to final fit the screws and pins was surprising as well as finishing time. 

DP

[bob in the woods]

Remember that the "shop" has to make money too, not just you. Tools, shop supplies, electric bill, etc.
I build guitars. My shop didn't magically sprout from the earth. The only thing I have to sell in the end is my time and skill. If my price is too high, then my feelings won't be hurt if someone goes elsewhere. I'm busy enough, and the older I get, the more I value my time.

[Mike Brooks]

I charge $1000 labor for a finished kit gun with no decoration.

[Dphariss]

I'm trying to get an idea as to a fair price for putting together a Kit rifle for someone.  He wants a Lancaster style with a brass patchbox.  Nothing really fancy but not to simple.  I was going to say around $150 to $200 to put it all together. 

Jason

I would not touch what you decribe for 500 even for a good friend.

Look at the shop prices at the local auto dealers and these guys are mostly parts changers.
I know a maker that charges 50 bucks an hour, well did 5 years ago, as a shop rate.
This is toward the low end today according to Brownells.
20 is the minimum for drill and tap some charge double or more. Coated 8-32 taps for stainless just cost me over $12 each on sale. Yeah they last well with good lube, but..
Installing a vent liner is more complex.
Most people wanting a ML expect the maker to work for less than minimum wage. After all they can buy some factory made for less that the parts cost for a good gun.

What if you should have an "error" and have to replace something on the kit?
Assuming a precarve how much extra wood does the stock have that will need to be removed?  Most are large enough  to carve so figure taking off 1/16" or more everywhere to get it to look right.
Making sure everything works as its supposed to, since you will be the "go to" guy if it don't.
Etc etc etc.
Liability?
Dan

[Cody Tetachuk]

This is exactly why I won't build a gun for anyone be it from a blank or kit. Here's the problem as I see it. Taylor ( and others) make a VERY valid point in that your time is worth money. After all, it's your life and when it's gone, it's gone. northmn also makes a valid point in that there is value in the tools that are required to complete the job. HOWEVER, Keb hit the nail on the head IMO and that is, what VALUE are you providing. If the customer provides you with a $700 kit and the end result is an $800 rifle, is it fair to charge $500 to put it together?. There are makers out there that can build a $2500 rifle from a $700 kit in 40 hours. There are MANY more that spend 100 hours to make an $800 rifle from that same $700 kit. Don't forget that there is also no shortage of $400-$500 rifles built from $700 kits. This is also why I get annoyed when someone post pics of their latest creation here on ALR and it's met by 2 pages of gushing praise when it's their 2nd or third rifle and really, it's not that good. That, combined with the gushing praise they recieved from "aunt Edna" and they are out searching Mike Brooks, Allen Martin and Bill Shipmans websites to see what they should be charging 'customers'. So, having said all that, IMHO, you should HONESTLY evaluate what the resultant rifle will be worth and do like KEB suggested. End result less parts equals labour. If you are HONESTY one of the guys that can make a $2500 rifle from a $700 kit then charge $1800 for labour. If you are HONESTLY one of the guys that makes a $500 rifle out of a $700 kit, don't charge anything for labour and be thankful that the 'customer' is letting you practice/improve on his dime.

[Roger Fisher]

God Bless the folks that have 'customers' that look to them to build or 'put together' ML's.  It keeps the game and art alive.

In my case they don't even ask me to build for them!  That tells me something...

Several said they'll just wait for my estate sale.

That tells me something also.  And I don't like it too much!

[Kermit]

A can of worms. A friend recently asked me to make him a custom piece (I'm a high-end furnituremaker) and asked specifically for great wood and my best craftsmanship that would result in a piece that his ancestors would be keeping in the family 500 (!) years hence. Really. I quoted him a wholesale price since I wasn't going to have to pay a gallery.  He winced. He wanted it for 25% of my wholesale cost! About what materials would have cost if it was not "great wood." I declined. THEN he wanted me to provide it as a kit with drawings for him to make himself. I declined again. I think we're still friends.

Bottom line, he wanted my best work for a fraction of what he pays to have his oil changed. And this from a guy whose retirement income is 4 times what I make working!

Pricing work is one of the really tough problems for any skilled craftsman. It's a topic whenever we get together. Do NOT undervalue yourself.

BTW, years ago an article in FineWoodworking told of a woodworker who priced her work by charging per hour what the client made per hour. You could try that! If I did, you can bet I'd lose a LOT of commissions from my wealthy clients.

[Robby]

Cody, I agree, pretty much. It does raise a question, in my mind anyway. Not everyone that posts "aunt Edna's" dream gun is looking for a good gushment, rather an honest evaluation of their work. Why is it there is never a word from the so called experts, that might offer encouragement by pointing out details, for and against the piece, as seen through their practiced eye. I'm sure there are many here, like myself that are not in "the business", don't go to shows, and aside from family and a few friends, this is the only place they can go to get an honest opinion.
Berk's, If this is your first customer, I think based on much of the sound advice you have been given, you can come up with a fair price, and see what it feels like to experience the pressure of trying to satisfy someone other than yourself. It may add a new perspective to your work, particularly, in the things that are not seen. Good luck!
Robby

[Dan'l 1946]

I charge $1000 labor for a finished kit gun with no decoration.

   I would expect to pay $1000.00 to have a very plain rifle built--say a so-called "poor boy" that doesn't even have a butt plate. I'd still get a nice rifle for $1500 or $1600 and wouldn't feel that I was ripping off a brother muzzleloader lover.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Robby, I don't agree with your observation of the critique that is offered on this site.  There are many of us who offer praise where it is due, and critical evaluation where we see a deficiency or a place where we think something might be improved.  It takes guts to post pictures of your work, and everyone who does should be encouraged.  We are all learning, and none of us has all the answers.  I have gleaned so much from the constructive feedback I've received, and by seeing what others have done.  But getting hands on critique at Dixon's Fair was by far the most valuable appraisal, from reputable builders like Bill Shipman, Allen Martin, Don Getz, Mark Wheland, Eric Von Auschwege, and Thomas Curran, to name but a few.

[Mike Brooks]

I have always felt you fellas were overly kind when I posted my work here. I usually expect to hear "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING MAN!"

[jwh1947]

Put a kit together for $150?    Around here the minimum going price is the cost of the kit!  This is for young gunsmiths who are hungry.  I'm too busy to do them and want the apprentices to get experience from a blank.

Point of reference?  What do auto mechanics make per shop hour, and what does the company charge you per shop hour for their services?  And today, all they are usually doing is plugging your car into a computer and replacing parts.  Perhaps you can find a Boy Scout seeking a merit badge that would do it for $150.  If you want the services of a skilled gunsmith, plan on paying him fairly.