Author Topic: "Needs to see original work"...  (Read 18365 times)

Offline JTR

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2010, 01:13:43 AM »
I realize that getting your hands on an original can be difficult, but good lord, I live in San Diego which is about as far from the fabled Long Rifle Land as possible, but they still show up from time to time at the one and only local gun show.

True, they are mostly just plain rifles, no carving, not much for inlays, but you don't need that stuff to learn, and to get the feel of how the forearm or lock panel was shaped, or how the wrist transitions to the butt, etc, etc. And mostly, they don't cost very much. I'd think that just about everyone lives close to some local show, so get out there and look!

On the other hand, maybe I should start a loan a gun program with my old clunkers!;D I'll tell you what I have, you tell me what you want. You pay shipping and insurance both ways, and pay for it if it gets broken or lost! What a deal!

John
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Offline smart dog

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2010, 03:00:31 AM »
Every gun I build is an original so I am always handling original work.

dave
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Offline smshea

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2010, 03:45:29 AM »
Every gun I build is an original so I am always handling original work.

dave

Love it!

Offline Stophel

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2010, 03:47:52 AM »
When is this?  I have some friends about 40min from there?

Well, I haven't gone the last couple of years, and I don't remember!  I think it has already been done this year...I think it's March??????
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Leatherbelly

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2010, 03:57:10 AM »
quote: Well, there you have it. Only those who have been to the temple mount, and pressed flesh to the ark itself can profit from the word of the lords, alas, the unwashed boondockers whose ken is but, based on rumor, once removed, nay tis idolatry, when held to the standard of those who have caressed that holy vessel, those poor unholy soles, not worthy of critique, @!*% their pagan hides!
Robby

Too bad you don't live closer. I think we would have a riot together!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 03:58:22 AM by Leatherbelly »

SPG

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2010, 03:59:16 AM »
Gentlemen,

Just got back from the Denver show and there was a very nice flint Haga rifle there...and you can bet that I handled it...several times. The owner was very patient and I was, of course, very respectful. There were also some nice iron mounted Southern rifles...it is surprising where longrifles show up out West...like the D. Boyer flint match rifle that I bought out of a pawn shop, still with it's unlined touch hole, in excellent original condition.

There were also some excellent contemporary makers in attendance at Denver, Jack Brooks and Warren Sulke being foremost. I can only hope to approach their level of expertise.

Would not it make sense to put oneself in the place of an apprentice to a known master, study the work, use the same tools, but still come up with an individual interpretation? This to me seems to be the way of the art form and is what is actually happening now with our many excellent contemporary makers.

I guess if one proceeded with the thought that some crotchety old German was standing at your shoulder watching your work one could not go too far wrong. Good work is good work, no matter when it is done.

Steve

Offline smallpatch

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2010, 04:11:43 AM »
I guess I too am one of those unholy soles.  I went to Dixon's once and had more fun than one man should be allowed to have, BUT,  I never got my hands on an original gun.  Saw a few through glass, but it might as well have been a photograph.
I live in AZ, and you're just not gonna find Penn. rifles here.  I guess I need to sell my truck, and put the wife on a diet.
I was able to handle some of Allen's Lehigh's though, and if that' what an original looks like...... I want to see more.

It IS amazing the difference between photos, and holding one in your hand.  It brings on a totally new "picture" of reality.  I never knew they were supposed to be that slender, and graceful.  (none of mine were)  Just holding one in my hands has totally changed my perspective, and how I build today.  (Thanks Mr Martin)

Give me more!!!
In His grip,

Dane

TgeorgeZ

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2010, 10:08:09 AM »
Never handled an original either.  But having handled and seen quality contemporaries, they are surprisingly delicate in appearance - almost like an iron barrel with a wooden sheath around it or so they seem to me.

Offline Ben I. Voss

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2010, 03:08:27 PM »
Quote from SPG: "I guess if one proceeded with the thought that some crotchety old German was standing at your shoulder watching your work one could not go too far wrong. Good work is good work, no matter when it is done."
Must be where I got any iota of talent that I have - half my family is comprised of "Crotchety Old Germans"!!

SPG

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2010, 03:20:54 PM »
Ben,

I hear you...half my family is crotchety old Germans and the other half is crotchety old Scots.

When I was a kid I spent as much time as I could sneak away from the ranch and school sitting in a crotchety old gunsmiths shop. I think I was tolerated because I knew which end of a broom was to be used...and I kept my mouth shut and listened. The gunsmiths name was Don King and I collect his work today. I consider him to be the equal of any of the old masters. Yes, he's still alive and living in Billings, Montana. He comes down to our muzzle loading matches and afterwards we all go out to The Armory and Don imparts some knowledge on engraving, wire work, stock shaping, etc. It is very enlightening and amusing to watch a video on contemporary muzzle loaders with Don. The comments are worth their weight in gold...

Steve

Offline Don Getz

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2010, 03:48:17 PM »
Steve........wow, I didn't realize that Don Kiing was still livng.  He did some real good stuff in his day.   You also mentioned
seeing Jack Brooks and Warren Sellke at a show.   Warren Sellke's name is rarely mentioned when you start discussing
good gunbuilders, but he is an outstanding builder.   Over the years I made a lot of barrels for him but never saw his work, until one day when I saw him and his guns.....really knocked my socks off.  I last saw him at the CLA show recently
and he's still doing it..............Don

SPG

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2010, 04:31:55 PM »
Don,

Don may be considering doing another rifle...he just finished going over a John Armstrong rifle that he did in 1981 that I traded to him (and consequently got back) that can only be described as "beautiful". You may remember the Bedford flinter that Don shot for years ("King's Ransom") of which I'm the lucky caretaker. Don has become much more interested in muzzle loading again and Dan Phariss and I are hoping to drag him to the CLA show in August. With Jack Haugh and Don King in the same room there will be no shortage of expertise or opinions!

Dan and I have been working at getting as much of Don's riflemaking history on tape as we can. Don was one of the best 'smiths in his day and his work is outstanding by any measure. Don handled a lot of original rifles and used his own style and common sense in his work...a true master in my opinion.

Not to hijack the thread but if you want to get Don fired up just ask his opinion on "aged" finishes. Don't stand too close as your hair may get set on fire! He is animate about shop finish and guns looking like they have left the hand of the maker...not pitted and distressed. I think that John Armstrong would have been of the same opinion. However, people's whims change and today's customer is not the same as the customer of old.

I intend to bring along some of Don's rifles and pistols...hoping to set up a table as a display of his work. Should be interesting and much fun...


Steve

jwh1947

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2010, 08:55:25 AM »
Smallpatch...it really is amazing, isn't it?  Hopefully some of the others, too, will have a similar opportunity; then they will understand...maybe.

OK, the Oracle is about to speak from the temple mount.  Stand back, because this revelation may be accompanied by thunder and lightning.  Regarding patch box mortise depth, here's the scoop.  A patch box must be deep enough to hold a Snickers bar. 

Yes, the judges at Dixons continually critique patch box depths as "not deep enough."  Yet, there again...depending on school and individual maker, many originals were quite shallow compared to the Dixons standard for evaluation.  So there, newbes, is part of the evaluation paradigm at the fair.  If you wish to enter that arena, save a point or two being shaved off your score and excavate down at least 3/4 of an inch; you shouldn't come out the other side.   Want more tips?  Get that front end wood down to a sleek graceful shape and get the waves out by finishing up with a block and aluminum oxide paper.  They will hold it to the light, looking down the barrel, and try to detect waviness in the forestock.  Also take time inletting.  Woodworkers who, to the best of my knowledge, have never built a gun, will be looking for gaps.  Little gaps cost points; big gaps relegate your entry to the "also ran" category.  Better for potential entrants to know these things before the build is over.  It's all about education, right?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2010, 10:30:59 AM »



Don King
3-6-2010 at the Cody shooting Complex.
He was 78 last Saturday.


And a buttstock detail of the rifle he is shown shooting. Its a Don King "John Armstrong".


Dan
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2010, 02:26:35 PM »
Thanks for the pic Dan. Kings work certainly is crisp. Don't see much of his work here in Iowa.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2010, 02:48:25 PM »
Dan......great pictures, hope you guys can drag him to the CLA in august.    He was, and might still be, one of the good ones...............Don

Offline skillman

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Re: "Needs to see original work"...
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2010, 12:56:47 AM »
Ian. Hello from the great northwest. Great to see you here. Thanks again for last year.
Those of us out here in the west have limited exposure to originals. In spite of that we manage to get talent from the east who do have contact with the originals to come and share with us. I am greatly impressed with their willingness to come and teach us what they can. Not everyone will get the same results from their teachings but at least we are trying. Those of us who put on the gunmakers fairs and those of us who attend, we aspire to improve. Thanks Jack,Brian,Mark,George, and Ian. It is very kind of you all to take the time to pass on the knowledge you have aquired to all of us out here in the wilderness. We really are trying to get the skills right.
Skillman
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