"Needs to see original work"...

[jwh1947]

Nothing infuriates a Dixon participant more than those words.  Around here it is common source of humor and chiding.

Many years ago, when I first got into Kentucky rifles, I read and read, and conversed with the most knowledgeable people in the business, and it is a business as well as a hobby, and there is one discussion that I will never forget.  As usual, I shot my big mouth off about some detail and the good Dr. Shumway looked me straight in the face and said, "Just how many originals of that variation have you handled and studied?"  Frankly, he stopped me cold, because maybe I had seen 3 or 4, but Doc had seen, measured and photographed maybe 100 of this type.  Then he became the professor and set me straight, much to my chagrin.  He went on to explain, "Unless you have really studied the originals, in your hand, you don't know what you are really doing as a builder.  Pictures go only so far; so do words.  There is no substitute to handling and studying the real  McCoys. 

I have seen some beautiful work over the years...much more fancy than I am capable of producing.  I have acquaintances, some friends even, who were machinists.  Their skills show in their gun building.  I have friends who are jewelers, good builders of jewelery, not just hucksters of other people's stuff.
Their craft expertise shows in their gun building.  I could never shine their shoes.

But saying this, some of these same people are working from pictures and words.  Their skills are superb, but they have never handled and truly studied the originals.

Anal???  OK  I;ll give you anal.  Are your bolt heads shaped correctly for a region?  You need to know how the original masters made them, then you can copy them.  Is your wrist correct, both in shape and size?  And your front end wood?  A Lancaster gunsmith did the job entirely differently than a Lehigh builder.  How do these jobs differ and what is the end result?

Why do we Pennsylvania builders commonly belittle many store bought parts?  The all leave something to desire when laid next to the originals. 

Details, details...every piece of brass furniture differs from county to county, as do lock placement and sight style.  And the architectural dissimilarities are conspicuous because the jobs were done differently.

George Shumway educated me and it was harsh at the time, but he was right.  Unless you have a substantial lifetime endeavor in examining the real guns, please don't speak ex officio,like a priest, and assume that you even know what you are talking about, because pictures and words are not enough.  And another thing while I am giving a sermon, variations and oddities exist.  The moment that you make an absolute statement about old guns, something pops up that forces an honest man to conclude that maybe he does not know everything that he thought he did.  Been there many times.

So, what's my point.  Go ahead.  Build guns as you deem appropriate.  Above all, enjoy it.  But, please, please, don't assume that you know more than a man who has studied thousands or originals, unless you have done so yourself.  Pictures and commentary is no substitute to being in the arena of material reality.

[JTR]

Ahhh, the devils in the details.
An original Jacob Dickert nail for inlays/ my slightly shorter copy for a missing one on a forearm. The head was suitably abused as I pounded it in!

John

[Jim Kibler]

jwh1947,

Ah, I hear what you are saying, but I have met those who have been exposed to many more originals than I, whose knowledge and understanding has been less than impressive.  Just like anything, it comes down to the individual.  Some have the ability to see, absorb and understand.  Others don't.  The converse can also be true.  Students and collectors who have never built a rifle are at a disadvantage as well.  Just some perspectives to ponder.

Jim

[dannybb55]

My old blacksmith friends and I agree that the tools determine the finished product. If you have precise machinery you will get a machine made product. Be it screws, nails, inlays, barrels, stocks etc. Locks mostly came from overseas, barrels came from up North and they were very carefully made. Most of the other parts were made from sheet metal and bar stock and it shows in the work.
 I was watching a youtube video about the House brothers and their shop looks like the one that I am building. Massive bench with a large post vice, a small coal forge and tools to make tools and parts, a champion hand powered drill press for precision holes and a big stack of planes, chisels and files to get the work out.
 These good old boys that built the current antiques were not machinists. They were closer to being whitesmiths or pattern makers and their tools reflected that. I don't expect to hear any electric tools in my shop. I hear that all day working on big 70 ton 20th century power boats. My ears need a break on the weekends.
                                                  I will try to link that woodberry video.
                                                          Danny

[dannybb55]

youtube: Flintlock Rifles with Hershel House...... Great video   Danny

[Stophel]

jwh1947,

Ah, I hear what you are saying, but I have met those who have been exposed to many more originals than I, whose knowledge and understand has been less than impressive.  Just like anything, it comes down to the individual.  Some have the ability to see, absorb and understand.  Others don't.  The converse can also be true.  Students and collectors who have never built a rifle are at a disadvantage as well.  Just some perspectives to ponder.

Jim

THANK YOU!

I've run into this in different areas.  Some "expert" might pontificate about something and claim "You don't know! Why, I've been doing this for 40 years....".  That doesn't mean he's been doing it right for 40 years, though.

As far as handling original guns, there are those collectors who are very helpful, and are glad to show you their guns, and I am certainly grateful for those people.  On the other hand, and I would bet probably for the most part, if you're not in with the In Crowd, you're just S.O.L., and opportunities for many of us to handle original guns can be EXTREMELY limited.

[jwh1947]

Very good point, Jim.  I might say necessary but not sufficient.  Yes, some people can stare reality right in the face and not absorb it.  A few even deny it; but, then again some of our most revered institutions base themselves on staring reality right in the face and saying "It just ain't so."

[Jim Kibler]

My old blacksmith friends and I agree that the tools determine the finished product.

In my opinion this is true to some extent, but the biggest factor determining the finished product is the builder's mind.  The longrifle itself pretty much determines the tools that can be used.  A few power tools such as a drill, bandsaw, lathe, mill, etc. can be used to advantage, but that's about it.  I don't think these power tools make too awful much difference in a final product.  In my opinion the biggest factor is the mindset of the builder.  The general tendency is for builders today to be overly concerned about fit and degree of finish when compared to original 18th century rifles.  The notion of using nothing but hand tools can be pretty romantic, but in the end it's the person behind those tools that makes the difference.

[louieparker]

well said ...LP

[jwh1947]

Agreed.  Building guns is a thinking game.  Some do get too carried away with embellishment and finish, when like time should be spent on fundamental architecture and form.  What I will stand firmly on is the statement I first made, but I will reword it.

 For me, the most significant component in my lifetime education on old guns was and continues to be the physical examination of original specimens. It transcends reading and looking at photographs, and was most useful after I had familiarized myself with the extant literature.  Had I not had the book knowledge, I would neither have known what I was looking at, nor appreciated its significance, For me, there is no substitute for close examination of the originals. 

As for criticism of posted guns that guys build, if they specifically ask for it, that's one thing.  But unsolicited negative criticism of a man's gun work on an Internet site  is quite presumptuous and about as tasteful and invigorating as having a fuddy-duddy ex-English teacher correct your grammar at a cocktail party.  Let's face it, any  cutting criticism here likely isn't coming from a world-class builder. Lots of the best makers in the world don't blog here.  They don't have the time.  And the best that do report here are not the critics that 'dis other's jobs.   

[bgf]

Funny, many times when looking at contemporary rifles, my initial reaction and critique is: needs to do original work.  An exact copy of an original with the holes drilled straighter, the brass polished better, and the wood smoother is still an inferior piece of work, as is a baseless but bedazzled and bejeweled fantasy rifle, polished up as if for European nobility (I thought we were against that kind of thing:)).  Some like H. House use an original as inspiration, then produce something that is uniquely their own and simultaneously a real longrifle made in modern times but related intimately to one from the past.  I'm guessing there aren't terribly many entries like that, but it would be nice if there were.

My opinion is offered freely, and should be valued accordingly.  I just look at pictures mostly, but I usually like pictures of old rifles better:).

[northmn]

I agree with the comments about physically handling and viewing an original as compared to copying contemporary.  Problem is that in some areas, like mine, original longrifles are very scarce.  The Western states just do not have many of them.  Those I have seen are mostly mid to late 1800 percussions.  Affluence also enters in as I have not had any chance to travel to the East just to view rifles.  Due to this I really do not like to get too critical of others work.  Some new builders have shown their work and asked for a critique.  Usually as a method of showing off as they should ask for guidance while building and not on a finished rifle when its too late.   Reproduction of an original is one thing and developing your own style within "acceptable" parameters another.  I feel strongly that most modern builders should have their own "signatures" on a build.  I may be inspired by JP Beck on a build but I am not JP Beck and do not slavishly copy small details of his work as the build is intended to have his influence, not to be a copy.  Because of these considerations, when I ask for advice or "blow off steam" I listen to only a few other builders whose work I have seen and respect.  When I had a ramrod hole come out in one build, reading advice from someone who states "I have only drilled a couple but this is how I do it" does not impress me.  It is the same for building rifles.  I set out to accomplish something, under the guidelines of the project as described to me by certain other individuals, whose opinion I respect.  Would I like to handle an original something besides a NWTG, you bet, but I have to work around that handicap.

DP

[jpldude]

As long as you get the patchbox recess depth correct, you'll be fine.

Rgds,

John

[Tom Currie]

"Needs to see original work", is a daunting directive for most of us hobby builders living outside of Eastern PA. Not that we don't understand it would be beneficial. We do the best we can with what is available to us for resources. I was the guy who stared at the Lehigh cabinet in the judging room at Dixons most of the weekend last year. Sorry for blocking everyones view. 

[flehto]

As was said...we who live in the "boondocks" {all areas not in PA} have a disadvantage in not having access to "originals" and have to depend on other references... mainly photos. Much info  can be gleaned from even b&ws and colored pics are a real treat, but it depends on the person  as to how much info is gained. Having viewed only 2 "originals" and these only fleetingly, which really didn't do me much good, a site such as ALR  and the posts and pics on this site, have been invaluable sources of info. But even these sources of info have to be "weighed"  w/ a critical eye because there's also a lot of  misinformation out there. I don't build "copies" of "original" LRs and really wouldn't want to, but do want to build LRs that are somewhat HC  but above all, have the "flavor" of whatever style I'm emulating. Anyways...for this "boondocker", considering the limited availability of "originals",  other sources of info will have to suffice....Fred

[Robby]

Well, there you have it. Only those who have been to the temple mount, and pressed flesh to the ark itself can profit from the word of the lords, alas, the unwashed boondockers whose ken is but, based on rumor, once removed, nay tis idolatry, when held to the standard of those who have caressed that holy vessel, those poor unholy soles, not worthy of critique, @!*% their pagan hides!
Robby

[smshea]

I think I've come full circle on this. There is no doubt that Central Pa is "MECA" for seeing original work and I am beyond grateful for the access I have had to private collections, Gun shows, KRA events etc. The thing that always sticks out to me is that even inside of these regional divisions "Schools" that we have assigned to the originals, there are allot of differences in the way makers designed their guns and built them. A good example of this is when a very plain gun turns up(No box , no carving , no dead give aways just regional influence) and the guys who know what they are looking at can nail it within a few miles of where it was made and usually attribute a maker based on the most subtle differences. The Hess family comes immediately to mind. By the way , I don't count myself among "Those Guys".
  So since they are all slightly different, personally I see no reason not to apply the features I like  to a gun unless trying to copy a specific rifle Which I personally do not do. While handling  original work can make some people very "anal"  It can also be very freeing! I personally love the work of Lehigh and Eastern Berks Co. and while I have handled some very fine specimens, I have handled far more plainish unsigned and unpublished guns that can be very different if your standing at the foot of the mountains or down in Kutztown or over 10 miles closer to Allentown. I give myself permission to blend that influence and everyone else permission to set their own boundaries and I respect them. When asked to build a Lancaster/Lebanon gun, your very likely to get a more Roman Nosed gun out of me unless otherwise instructed (And then I say No) just because that is what I like and can point to examples of of that in the school.
 If you don't have great access to original work, Do the best you can with the info you have all the time striving for more  and set some guidelines for your self, Allow them to change if need be but above all have fun and don't let your viewpoint become so narrow that you cant respect the interpretations of others. Allen builds some of the nicest Lehigh interps. out there , so does Eric.... but their work is very different. Herman Rupp did beautiful work and so did Peter Neihart....also very different yet somehow I don't see old Harry telling Pete that Lehigh is "Not Proper" or some such thing.
 
 Ps . this applies to everything except Patch box depth....of course!         

[Ian Pratt]

  In all but the most extreme cases, anybody who truly wants to study original long rifles can see them if they want to take the time to find out how and where, and for those of us with limited or fixed income, be willing to make sacrifices and travel. Ain't necessarily going to be easy and it usually won't happen overnight. For a variety of reasons some will get less opportunities, which is why I always suggest that you should study whatever pieces are most readily available to you as much and as often as possible, regardless of how plain they are or if they fit your idea of the ideal rifle. Study every detail, learn them inside and out. Combined with what you will find in the books you'll get a basis for comparison when you do finally get the opportunity to see the guns you're really after.

Money is easy to come by, give up food, your family and gasoline for starters. There's always a way.    

[Stophel]

  Money is easy to come by

If you say so...


 

There are several good shows people can go to.  Obviously, most of these are going to be east of the Mississippi.  The CLA show is in August (I think, is that correct?).  There are other shows like the Norris, TN show (which are by invitation only, but just ask, and I think they'll be happy to invite you    ).  There are regular gun shows that can offer some good opportunities to see, handle, even buy old guns.  I'm told that Wanenmacher's show in Tulsa might be good.  I go to the big gunshow in Louisville every now and then.  Sometimes, there are several good antique gun dealers there, and I have seen some super neat stuff.  Other times, there ain't much by way of antique guns, so it's kind of hit or miss.  Baltimore is supposed to be awesome (never been there.  Just too far away).  I'm told there is a good show in Pottstown, PA...

You'll find some neat old guns at the Friendship shoot, too.  I haven't been there in 2 or 3 years, though.  Wallace Gusler had a booth set up with several guns that you NEED to go see.   

[Ian Pratt]

Man you can't just say the part about money being easy to come by, got to include the part about abandoning your responsibilities and learning to appreciate the insulating properties of a good old fashioned cardboard box on cold winter nights. Those pennies all add up to bus fare when you don't have to pay to feed a bunch of snot nosed kids any more, kids who will likely grow up and become anti gun zealots whose goal in life is to finally track you down and neutralize you with some kind of eco - friendly brain homogenizing device.
 Abandon your life, save your pennies and follow Stophel to the original longrifles. I have to go, they are throwing me out of the library again, I have this habit of yelling while I type  
  

[Jim Kibler]

Stophel,

You may also want to consider the Lake Cumberland Mini Show.  Mel Hankla and all those involved have done a fantastic job organizing this.  There was a tremendous display or important original rifles there last year.  Seems this show only keeps getting better.

-Jim

[Dphariss]

Nothing infuriates a Dixon participant more than those words.  Around here it is common source of humor and chiding.

Many years ago, when I first got into Kentucky rifles, I read and read, and conversed with the most knowledgeable people in the business, and it is a business as well as a hobby, and there is one discussion that I will never forget.  As usual, I shot my big mouth off about some detail and the good Dr. Shumway looked me straight in the face and said, "Just how many originals of that variation have you handled and studied?"  Frankly, he stopped me cold, because maybe I had seen 3 or 4, but Doc had seen, measured and photographed maybe 100 of this type.  Then he became the professor and set me straight, much to my chagrin.  He went on to explain, "Unless you have really studied the originals, in your hand, you don't know what you are really doing as a builder.  Pictures go only so far; so do words.  There is no substitute to handling and studying the real  McCoys. 

I have seen some beautiful work over the years...much more fancy than I am capable of producing.  I have acquaintances, some friends even, who were machinists.  Their skills show in their gun building.  I have friends who are jewelers, good builders of jewelery, not just hucksters of other people's stuff.
Their craft expertise shows in their gun building.  I could never shine their shoes.

But saying this, some of these same people are working from pictures and words.  Their skills are superb, but they have never handled and truly studied the originals.

Anal???  OK  I;ll give you anal.  Are your bolt heads shaped correctly for a region?  You need to know how the original masters made them, then you can copy them.  Is your wrist correct, both in shape and size?  And your front end wood?  A Lancaster gunsmith did the job entirely differently than a Lehigh builder.  How do these jobs differ and what is the end result?

Why do we Pennsylvania builders commonly belittle many store bought parts?  The all leave something to desire when laid next to the originals. 

Details, details...every piece of brass furniture differs from county to county, as do lock placement and sight style.  And the architectural dissimilarities are conspicuous because the jobs were done differently.

George Shumway educated me and it was harsh at the time, but he was right.  Unless you have a substantial lifetime endeavor in examining the real guns, please don't speak ex officio,like a priest, and assume that you even know what you are talking about, because pictures and words are not enough.  And another thing while I am giving a sermon, variations and oddities exist.  The moment that you make an absolute statement about old guns, something pops up that forces an honest man to conclude that maybe he does not know everything that he thought he did.  Been there many times.

So, what's my point.  Go ahead.  Build guns as you deem appropriate.  Above all, enjoy it.  But, please, please, don't assume that you know more than a man who has studied thousands or originals, unless you have done so yourself.  Pictures and commentary is no substitute to being in the arena of material reality.

Very true and for us out in the boondocks a curse.
But I don't see myself as copying original guns, making museum quality replicas if you will, which I do not do. I lack the information base to do this for one reason.

Dan

[Stophel]

Stophel,

You may also want to consider the Lake Cumberland Mini Show.  Mel Hankla and all those involved have done a fantastic job organizing this.  There was a tremendous display or important original rifles there last year.  Seems this show only keeps getting better.

-Jim

I may not be welcome there.....   No, just kidding, they might let me in.

[dannybb55]

I love looking at pics of Penn rifles but have never wanted one, except a Deringer, Henry or a Leman. We built plenty of rifles down hear and there are a fair amount on display in museums, etc. If you want to see some nice rifles, study your local ones. Be a local expert, just like the old smiths. Nothing looks hokey-er than a Penn rifle at a NC historical event. The poor boy has to come up with some reason that his rifle came south.  
                                   Danny

[bob243]

  Money is easy to come by

If you say so...


 

There are several good shows people can go to.  Obviously, most of these are going to be east of the Mississippi.  The CLA show is in August (I think, is that correct?).  There are other shows like the Norris, TN show (which are by invitation only, but just ask, and I think they'll be happy to invite you    ).  There are regular gun shows that can offer some good opportunities to see, handle, even buy old guns.  I'm told that Wanenmacher's show in Tulsa might be good.  I go to the big gunshow in Louisville every now and then.  Sometimes, there are several good antique gun dealers there, and I have seen some super neat stuff.  Other times, there ain't much by way of antique guns, so it's kind of hit or miss.  Baltimore is supposed to be awesome (never been there.  Just too far away).  I'm told there is a good show in Pottstown, PA...

You'll find some neat old guns at the Friendship shoot, too.  I haven't been there in 2 or 3 years, though.  Wallace Gusler had a booth set up with several guns that you NEED to go see.   

When is this?  I have some friends about 40min from there?