Brass pistol barrels

[Bentflint]

What is the best aloy for making brass pistol barrels?

[bigsky]

I read somewhere, someone asking about using the bronze drive shaft out of an outboard motor to make a muzzleloader barrel.  The comments on it were that it would be strong enough.  I'm not sure about how historically accurate the alloy would be compared to a true brass barrel though.

[T*O*F]

What is the best aloy for making brass pistol barrels?

They all work as long as they have a steel barrel liner in them.   

[Rolf]

I thought brass barrels were normally made with gunmetal without steel liners.
U.S. Government bronze specification G is a gunmetal composed of 88% copper, 10% tin, and 2% zinc. It would be interesting to hear from barrel makers, what type of alloy they use today.

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Dphariss]

What is the best aloy for making brass pistol barrels?

The proper bronze alloy should be OK. But its still a copper alloy and I would rather have a steel barre or at least a lined bronze barrel. I suppose brass will work OK if its lined.
The Civil War bronze field pieces stood up well so its difficult to say bronze is unsafe with blackpowder. But Brass is *not* Bronze and alloy is *critical*.
Yield is about 20000-22000. The yield for mild steel 1018 for example, is about 44000-50000.
Dan

[Bill of the 45th]

Stonewall Creek Outfitters, has Ed Rayl Bronze barrels in stock.  I believe Ed uses naval bronze for his barrels.  Give Troy a call and ask him what Ed makes them out of, or call Ed.  I don't think it's a secret.  It may be cheaper to get one from Troy cheaper than making it, unless it an odd size or shape.

Bill

[LynnC]

Dan - I am guessing you are refering to brass as to yield strength.  If I remember right, Gun bronze yield strength far exceeds mild steel.  Your estimate is probably right on (for brass), Just clarifying.  We all need a Marks Handbook or Mechanical Engineers book handy, don't we.......................Lynn

[LynnC]

If memory serves, the higher the copper content, the more likely the alloy is to tear when over loaded rather than fragment.  90/10 (copper/tin) or 88/10/2 (copper/tin/zinc) gun bronze should stand any reasonable black powder load a pistol barrel of good design would be subjected to.  High copper alloys are not subject to season/age cracking.  Check out the books mentioned above - lots of good info.

I don't think there was a single failure of a bronze tube during the entire War Between the States, and the Confederates were using some very loosely defined bronze alloys in many of their cannon.  I've stood very near an original Napoleon firing a full service charge with no worry ( except for ear protection )!.........Lynn

[FL-Flintlock]

Obtainable yield strength @ 2% offset dependent on alloy and mfg technique

Brass leaded:  cast:  12-15ksi  /  wrought:  14-62ksi

Brass (non-leaded):  10- 65ksi

Phosphor bronze:  14-80ksi

Silicon bronze:  21-70ksi

Also note that there are approximately 120 standard listed brass alloys and 140 standard listed bronze alloys - there are approximately 300 non-listed special-pupose/custom alloys of both brass and bronze.  If ordering materials for a critical application, it would be wise to buy only certified alloy that is clearly marked and comes with documentation from the mfg, not the retail/wholesale seller.

[Bentflint]

Here is why I ask. I am doing some contract work for a machine shop that has 1000s of lbs. of brass aloys on hand. From soft to bushing aloys, 1/4" to 5" round. As some of you know I contuor my own pistol barrels.  He is willing to drill, ream and thread for breech plug blanks for me. As he puts it "all I have to do is tell the machine to do it and it will". 8" to 10" deep holes in .40, .45, and .50 no problem. No dout faster that I can do it my self.
I just hate to miss an oppertunity so close at hand, ya know?

[don getz]

Gee Whiz, you guys are amazing.   I don't see the problem.   How much powder do you expect to shoot in a Pistol?
We're not making 44 mags. here.    Most brass barreled pistols that you see are big smoothbores, they would shoot a
big ball, with probably 20-30 grains of powder, at the most.  In most pistol barrels, you cannot put enough powder in
them to blow them up.   The same loading precautions still prevail  as in a rifle, make sure the ball is down on top of the
powder and you sholdn't have any problems........Don

[lew wetzel]

ya,you tell em don,i think you should build a brass barreled barn pistol...lol

[Bentflint]

Thanks Don, that's the answer I was looking for.

Wetzel, I think it would be more of a shed gun, too short to be a barn. Should only take about a day and a half to build though.

[ironwolf]

 Good one Y'all

[Dphariss]

Dan - I am guessing you are refering to brass as to yield strength.  If I remember right, Gun bronze yield strength far exceeds mild steel.  Your estimate is probably right on (for brass), Just clarifying.  We all need a Marks Handbook or Mechanical Engineers book handy, don't we.......................Lynn

There is a considerable difference in "tensile" and "yield" numbers. Numbers from one place to another tend to vary somewhat for similar alloys and the way these alloys were actually formed into the shape being discussed.
So far as far exceeding mild steel it will depend on many factors. Cold rolled 1018 is "stronger" than hot rolled but is far less suitable for shock applications.
So the strongest material might not always the best for a firearms barrel.  There are many other factors to consider. The bronze guns had a better record in Civil War Artillery than iron for several reasons. The biggest was in how the metal handled heat. In battle with panic level firing rates the iron guns got very hot and it was thought at the time that the wet mop was damaging the tubes and causing them to burst at some subsequent shot. The bronze guns with their better conductivity did not seem to be damaged by this.
If I were making a "brass" barreled gun I would try to find a alloy identical to the bronze used in military artillery of the mid-19th century. Even small additions of other material can change properties of the material.

Dan

Below is from
http://www.atlasbronze.com/C46400_product_sheet.html?gclid=CO74xJn30ZUCFQ77iAodO3RTiQ

and gives somewhat higher numbers than the other reference. Also note that it is noted as suitable for use for "pressure vessels". But again this is not necessarily the same as a firearms barrel since pressure does not mean there is any shock loading of the vessel.

Material:Copper Alloy Number 464  --  Wrought Naval Brass, Non-Leaded Naval Bronze, CDA 464
Naval Brass or C46400 is a high strength, corrosion resistant alloy containing nominally 60% copper, .75% tin and 39.25% zinc.  It is widely used in marine construction where a strong, corrosive resistant and hard material is required.  It is available at a comparatively low cost.

Applications:
Marine: Propeller Shafts, Marine Hardware, Decorative Fittings, Shafting, Propeller Shafts, Turn buckles.
Industrial: Welding Rod, Condenser Plates, Structural Uses, Valve Stems, Balls, Heat Exchanger Tube, Aircraft Turn buckle Barrels, Bearings, Dies, Golf Ball Production, Pressure Vessels, Bearings, Bushings, Hub Cones


Tensile Strength: Minimum 55 ksi 
Yield  Strength:Minimum 25 ksi - 0.5% Ext. under load   
Elongation: 50%

This steel is a mild hot rolled steel (this gives lower tensile and yield than cold rolled)
http://www.onlinemetals.com/alloycat.cfm?alloy=A36&print_this_page=1
lists it as ATSM A36. It appears to be 1026 steel, 26 points of carbon.
Ultimate Tensile Strength psi  58000-79000
Yield Strength   psi 36300
Elongation 20%