getting a english officers fusil....what bag did they use with it?

[sonny]

in the french& indian war ....what kind of a bag would an officer have with his back home made english officer fusil when coming to america to serve.Did they always use paper patched bullets or did they use patch an ball early on??............sonny

[Luke MacGillie]

Sonny,

Really good question, and one that no one has a 100% answer for.  Officers carrying any type of weapon other than a sword and spontoon was a new "Trend" in the last half of the 18th Century.  Those that are involved in the reenactment side of the house look at sporting images of the period for clues as to what type of gear the offficers would  have used.

[sonny]

luke.........i know that british regulars had paper cartridges in colonial period,but wondered if  very early they had leather pouch with all the stuff in it to make gun work......belly pouch?.....or maybe not leather but fabric like there haversacks..........really would love to find out  what they used...sonny

[Luke MacGillie]

Sonny,

There were "Officer Grade" cartridge boxes, the style was unit dependant.  Period images of Light infantry and Grenadier officers show a shoulder slung pouch.  Highland units wore a belly box.  But that is the "On Duty" way of doing things, what they had for hunting on the moors when back home is what I was thinking you were looking for.

[James Rogers]

I would say a cartouche box.

There is to my knowledge no evidence to suggest that patched balls were considered for smooth guns during that time as their mindset seems to have been that a patch was just to seal the grooves in rifling.

[Artificer]

I might suggest the type of pouch used would come from:

1. What type of Regiment the Officer belonged.
2. Where the Regiment was raised or quartered.
3. The rank of the Officer
4.  Where the Officer came from.

If the Officer was in a Light Infantry unit, he probably would have used a fancier verison of the enlisted belly box or used the enlisted version if a fancier one was not available.  He could also have used the standard enlisted belly box and had it further embellished - suitable to his station, rank or wealth.

If the Officer's Regiment was raised or quartered close to London or Birmingham or other large city, he may have had a fancier version of a shoulder cartridge box or a belly box provided from military outfitters.  I would guess this could be the fanciest ones of all, especially around London.

I'm speculating here, but I woud guess a Major or above would have a fancy "sporting" pouch as Majors and above would not have actually used Officer's fusils as much. 

If the Officer came from the "Country Gentry,"  the pouch likely would have been a sporting pouch IF the Officer already had the fusil or procurred it locally.

Gus

[J.D.]

I would think that in a military context, paper cartridges, carried in a cartridge box would be the ammunition and carry of choice, simply due to the military context. IMHO, officers were and are required to provide leadership visually, as well as verbally, so IMHO, conformity to uniform reqs would have been the norm.

Some folks like to load paper still wrapped around the ball, some squeeze the ball out of the paper, and load the paper on top of  the ball as an over shot wad.

IMHO, gotta try both ways to see what it likes.

As far as a sporting bag for civilian use, there really aren't any dated examples of early bag of the type used in the American Colonies, so everything us left to supposition.

Generally speaking, if I was to make an early bag of the 1760's, it probably would be rather large, 8 or 9" square or squarish, plain, and made of 3 Oz, or so, veg tanned leather, with  leather straps about 1" or a little more wide.

God bless

[G-Man]

Here is a link to the famous image of Robert Rogers.  I am not sure of the date the image was originally done.  I know it was copied several times, I have seen at least one version of it dating to the eve of the Revolution in the 1770s, but the original version might have been done earlier, perhaps 1760s(?). 

http://www.bethelhistorical.org/Robert%20Rogers.jpg

[Luke MacGillie]

Maj Scott by Copely and the ca 1760 image of John Campbell of Melfort are good places to look at Officers Cartridge boxes.  I do not think that an officer would ever wear an enlisted box unless he was being armed out of stores.  If he got the fusil, he most likely would have as part of the purchase price received a box, belt, bayonet/hanger/scabbard.  In some regiments it was of a regimental pattern.

[The other DWS]

the painting "Death of Wolfe"  by Benj. West  is a pretty good source reference.  West acquired a number of original contemporary artifacts for use in his painting, some of which are still extant.  It has been some time since I studied it in detail and I don't recall if cartridge boxes/bags are shown accurately or not.
  while there is considerable discussion and evidence to indicate that historical individuals shown in the painting were never present at the scene portrayed, no one has ever really quibbled with the costume and equipment details

http://www.gallery.ca/bulletin/num7/stacey1.html presents an interesting discussion as does the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_General_Wolfe

[Artificer]

Maj Scott by Copely and the ca 1760 image of John Campbell of Melfort are good places to look at Officers Cartridge boxes.  I do not think that an officer would ever wear an enlisted box unless he was being armed out of stores.  If he got the fusil, he most likely would have as part of the purchase price received a box, belt, bayonet/hanger/scabbard.  In some regiments it was of a regimental pattern.

Luke,

I looked over this link that purports to contain all of Copley's paintings and Maj Scott is not listed.  Do you have a link to that painting, by chance? 

http://www.fineart-china.com/oil%20painting%20artist/John%20Singleton%20Copley.html

[Luke MacGillie]

Thats what you get trusting a place in China for copies of American Art 

http://books.google.com/books?id=sf5V0A91r0EC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=MAJ+Scott+%26+40th+Light+Infantry&source=bl&ots=T--3Jb7E2i&sig=Q5kfZjwSfNj_ifnKlvInKDL-mrs&hl=en&ei=UQkLTPiIFqPsNNSG5bUE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Its in full color on the cover of this book

[Artificer]

  I went over a number of different google searches and that was the most complete link I found.   Couldn't find the picture you mentioned. Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure if I'm getting a clear picture of the box.  It looks like there are individual pockets sewn to hold each paper cartridge, but it does look like the product of a good leather worker.

Will bring something else up in the next post.

Gus

Modified to add, I noted the powder horn was specifically mentioned to use for pistols and to prime musket pans so the soldiers would not dump too much powder in their pans during a firefight.  That is a GREAT reference I've never heard of before.

[Artificer]

  If he got the fusil, he most likely would have as part of the purchase price received a box, belt, bayonet/hanger/scabbard.  In some regiments it was of a regimental pattern.

This is a great point as everything you mentioned would have been been considered "a proper stand of arms" for any 18th century military firelock with the inclusion of a sling.  An Officer's fusil may or may not have had sling swivels fitted, though.

One field I want to study more is the procurement of military arms in 18th 
England with special emphasis on the London and Birmingham trades.  I've got some good references on standard arms for enlisted troops, but not as much for Officers - except for swords and I have a pretty good library on that.  In the two volume set "Swords for Sea Service" they mention a Father who bought a sword for his son who was going out as a Midshipman.  It had the regular Officer's sword guard and hilt, but had a cutlass blade.  As soon as I read that I thought, "Way to go DAD !!"  He ensured his son had an acceptable sword for dress, but also a sword a younger man could wield properly in combat.  I've strayed off subject a bit as an example of the latitude Officers were given when procuring their own arms.

I do not know of and don't think there was a "standard pattern" for Officer's fusils as early as the F&I War and even the Revolutionary War, though I could be mistaken.  I "assume" there would have been suitable fusils available for sale ready made by merchants who dealt in the military trade or the Officer could have ordered one made.  Or after the Officer got over here, he could have purchased (or perhaps even issued) an enlisted man's carbine as that would have been more convenient than even a cut down musket.  I would also assume most Officers' Fusils would have been in Carbine Bore of .66 caliber vs the .75 caliber musket bore. 




 

[Luke MacGillie]

Gus,

The box that Maj Scott has is often refered to as a "Dragoon" style, there is an original of this type pictured in "Of Sorts for Provincals" by Jim Mullins

Using a seperate horn or flask to prime was common in English drill manuals up till the 1730's, but was one of the improvements that Bland came up with.

Belly Boxes are a Light and mostly Highland thing, Conventional infantry officers are often painted with an over the shoulder box.

[Artificer]

Luke,

Well, it looks like that makes another good reason to buy "Of Sorts for Provincials."

Didn't know that about English Drill Manuals prior to 1730.  Gosh and I'm going to have to learn British Infantry Drill for the F&I War.  I already know the Manual of Arms for the M1, M14 and M16 in modern drill and all drill movements.  I learned both Hardee's Light Infantry and Gillham's manual for Civil War up to and including Schools for the Battalion and Regiment.  I also learned Patten's Artillery drill for the same.  I learned Von Steuben's drill a long time ago and have been trained as a Rammer man for 7 man  Land Artillery drill during the Revolution, though I can't do the entire drill.   I also learned The Highland Drill for Skirmishers.   Lately I've been trying to master the British Infantry Drill Manual of 1764.  I can't be as active as I once was, so I always fall in for Recruit Practice when I attend an event just to get my head in the correct period drill. 

I'm quite familiar with the Rev War belly box as I've reenacted The Major's Coy, 42nd Royal Highland Regiment for a few years.  The Dragoon Belly Box I'm familiar with is listed in the link below.   I can't tell by the painting, but it looks like Major Scott's Dragoon Belly Box has the "tubes" sewn from one leather piece.

http://www.gggodwin.com/CartGenie/prod-134.htm

Gus

[Luke MacGillie]

I too have way too many drills that I have to keep straight, Blands, Highland Military, French 55, Brit 64 plus all that Modern drill that despite growing up in reenacting, only hurt me at NCOES schools when it came D&C time. 

2 places where you can find the flask in drill, a 1733 Militia drill published in Boston, (Colonial Wiliamsburg used to produce a facimilie version) as well as the earlier versions of Blands, has the priming with a horn or flask, but was eliminated in the versions of the drill at the dawn of the F&I era.  Going on memory here, but a "Regulation" or at least Govt Owned powder flask was recovered from Ft Loudoun TN, and thus the recreated SC Independant use the earlier version of Blands.

Luke

[Artificer]

Luke,

Though I had to deliberately think not to do something we did in marching band before I went to Marine Boot Camp, overall that marching experience helped me.  Guess I was fortunate to learn modern drill before I started learning ealier period drills.  There were a few times earler drill movements creeped into modern times to my embarrassment, though.  The worst was when as a Gunny (E-7) and I had to move our Platoon to another section of the field to get into Bn formation.  After I was told where to move the Platoon, I commanded "Company, without doubling, by the right flank, company into line.............MARCH !"  Nobody moved.............  Oops.  Then I called out, "Sorry, wrong time period.  Right Face, Forward March.........etc."