I can see your point, but point is, within normal hunting ranges, RB's do just fine and actually kill game faster than slower moving slugs.
Again, I don't disagree with that point totally, just the "faster" part because that's proportional to size. I started out hunting WT's with .45 PRB's, went to a .50, then .54, then .62 (all flintlock), based on my actual field experience, there's no noticable difference in speed of kill between the .45 & .50. There is a notable difference between the .50 & .54 especially when you look at the wound channel and penetration depth on the test range but the difference is noticable in the field too. There's no denying the 12 bore PRB's hit like a freight train inside of 100yds but pushing them at just 1380 fps the recoil in punishing unless the gun mass is upped to at least 10.5# IIRC, the PRB trajectory is around 28-30" @ 150yds while the conical trajectory is around 13" @ 150yds. Yes, the PRB still packed plenty of punch at 150yds but as with the 100yd results, the wound channel was no larger in diameter than that produced by the conical but the penetration depth difference is considerable. The caveat of "normal hunting range" is the variable because that all depends on what the individual considers "normal" which may be 50yds or 300yds.
Yes, for the 300th time, the RB is range limited. SO ARE THE SIGHTS.
And SO IS THE BULLET AT BP VELOCITIES.
YES, the bullet, say a 360-380 gr 40 caliber, will kill an elk about as far as you can see to shoot at it. It will, from historical accounts, shoot through an American Bison at 600 yards. So what?
The trajectory is so steep at 1400 fps that hits at long range are VERY problematical even for VERY experienced shooters. Trust me, pre-laser range finder I and another long time elk guide and multiple nats. champion in BPCR silhouette repeatedly missed an almost surely Boone and Crockett bull at 425 yards since we could not get the range right. I think between the two of us we shot 6 shots at him.
YEARS of competition in BPCR many many wins, national records, championships. My companion shooting 4000-5000 rounds a year in competition and practice FROM ONE GUN ALONE, hunting with similar guns, unknown range "gong matches", R&D etc etc.
If people of this experience level cannot HIT an elk at 425 yards with a "conical that penetrates better" what the $#*! business has a weekend warrior got trying it?
The light and the color and the size of the bull made him seem 125 yards closer (we both called it 300 yards) and even holding higher and higher for successive shotsdid not get the job done. One rifle was a 40-90 BN and the other a 44-90 BN. The 40 shoots about as flat as any BPCR you will find but it was not flat enough. The trajectory at 400+ is very very steep.
Look at the trajectory table for a 100 yard zero. Doing my known hold over for 300 note how low I was at 425 with the actual MV for the short barreled 40-90 I used and estimated BC for a swaged FP bullet. Its 105 inches low at 425, the paced distance to where the elk was standing. This is 8.75 FEET.
Of course this bullet will greatly out penetrate a 380 gr RB at this distance making a deeper wound channel. But since I hit nothing but dirt it does not matter much. Note the low trajectory to its point blank range with 100 yard zero. But its has a far better BC than ML bullets used for hunting be about 3 calibers long and needing at least a 20" twist and better with a 16".
Then lets look at variations in velocity. A 40 caliber 380 bullet at 1425 FPS (my long barreled silhouette 40-70 BN would do this with a "naked" bullet) will shoot round groups at 300 yards with a standard deviation of velocity of 10 or less. HOWEVER, with a SD 40 it will produce THIRTY INCHES OF VERTICAL DISPERSION at 300. Same rifle, same bullet, same day, same EVERYTHING just more or less care in loading the cartridges. 30" will put you WAY out of the kill zone of any animal in NA. So unless your conical loads are doing 10 SD or LESS then it is UNETHICAL to shoot at game past about 150 yards about the max range of the average American "big game" PRB.
I have shot at game animals with a presighted BPCR rifle with good loads at 500 yards or so and the SLIGHTEST bobble on the X-sticks will cause a miss. A rifle like even my 15 pound 45-100 produces enough recoil that SLIGHTEST error in how the gun is held will likely put the bullet completely off a elk sized animal at 300-400 yards. The error will not be known until the gun is fired and the shooter realizes that the real was a little different and the bullet strike was "off".
So. AGAIN. The increased range of the conical is an ILLUSION for the most part.
YES. IF you have a laser range finder and IF you have precision adjustable tang sights and IF you have a table of sight settings or IF you have a area where you can see bullet strikes you MAY kill deer or elk or buffalo past 150-200 yards. BUT YOU WILL LIKELY MISS ANYWAY. ESPECIALLY if the SD of the load is over 10 fps.
I have already done all this YEARS AGO.
So if hunting with a fixed sight arm at ranges under 150 yards the conical in a MUZZLELOADER has far MORE disadvantages than advantages compared to the ball so long as the ball is PROPERLY SIZED FOR THE GAME.
A good bullet like a RCBS 300 GCFP, the Lyman 456192 or 457193 are WONDERFUL hunting bullets I have killed animals with ALL OF THEM. SO WHAT? They have a useful range for the average hunter, with a typical 18th-19th century hunting rifle, no longer than that of a 50 caliber PRB. A deer shot with a 456192 350 grain and 40 yards from a 45-70 will run about the same distance as one shot with a 54 RB from a PISTOL.
No, one should not try Texas heart shots with the typical RB but I don't do them unless shooting something that is already wounded. The last one I did was at 350+ yards with a 6.5x55 on a deer a guy I was hunting with shot the entire lower jaw off of after I told him DO NOT TRY HEAD SHOTS. And yes the 140 grain Speer went completely through the deer from right hip to left shoulder. The deer then ran, jumped a fence, I then approached, missed a head shot while peeking over the terrain at about 120 yards and then killed her running. Does this then mean the 30-06 and the 6.5x55 is inadequate? No it means you better shoot the animal in the right place the first shot PERIOD.
16 to the pound RB at 1650. 150 gr of swiss FF.
This is with the sight in range increased just 5 yards
Note that a center hold will kill a deer to 130+ yards. About as far as most people can make open sights work well.
Note that running a ballistics program to replicate Forsythe's trajectories we find that his 14 bore rifle was doing 1600 +- with 5 drams of powder, it had a very similar trajectory to my 16 bore with the same weight of powder.
While round balls hold their shape fairly well soft lead bullets tend the shorten and get blunter (effecting the BC) when shot with BP. A soft .457125 520 gr for example shot in a .457 BORE will upset all the way to the ogive and will have significant rifling marks even on the bore riding nose that was .449 as cast.
Then we have from
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bc_not_exist.htm*********
Independent testing has confirmed that severely inflated muzzleloading ballistic coefficients exist, some beyond the realm of anything but fraudulent claims.
An inflated BC can get you into trouble, as you are severely misguided as to both trajectory, and terminal energy on target. A conservative BC cannot. It is not realistic to list all the "as tested" ballistic coefficients vs. the fantasy published by many bullet manufacturers. One would hope that it would be their job to "get honest," and offer some truth in advertising. That is unlikely to happen in smokepole city. Here are just a few eye-openers, though:
Actual 100 yard BC's as tested pushed by 100 grains T 7:
* Precision Rifle QT 215 gr. = .174, PUBLISHED BC = .319
* Precision Rifle Dead Center 200 gr. = .176, PUBLISHED BC = .300
* Precision Rifle Dead Center 220 gr. = .192, PUBLISHED BC = .325
* Precision Rifle Dead Center 240 gr. = .211, PUBLISHED BC = .351
* Hornady 250 gr. SST = .184, PUBLISHED BC= .210 (by Hornady)
* Hornady 250 gr. SST = .184, PUBLISHED BC= .240 (by T/C--same bullet!)
* Hornady 300 gr. SST = .226, PUBLISHED BC = .250
***********
So lets run the 250 gr Hornady SST (pi$$ poor design BTW based on shooting 2 deer with their 325 gr "Leverevolution" 45-70 factory load) at 1650 through the same program.
How about Lyman's 575602 Minie. Its nice and blunt, 400 grains is near the 16 bore for weight, driven by Lyman with 150 gr of FF G-O. Lyman BC and velocity. Pretty good comparison to the 16 bore with the same powder charge.
Then the lowly 50 caliber RB, which I have killed deer with to 140 yards or so. Lyman BC
How about the 445 RB?
.445 Rb will kill deer to its "point blank range" too.
All from the same ballistics program (others may vary) all with either actual or realistic BP velocities.
All will surely kill deer dead to their point blank range, all the same zero etc etc.
Which is best? Which is *significantly* flatter? The pointed "modern bullet".
The 58 minie is actually unusable sighted to 120, its pointblank is +-5" (10 inch circle) too much. Lets find point blank range for it for a deer, how about striking within a 6.5" or so circle like the 16 bore table?
The problem with the Minie shown here is EXACTLY what Forsythe detailed in the 1850s-60s. Compare the 16 bore ball to the 58 Minie with the SAME POWDER CHARGE.
AND it is very difficult to calculate recoil of BP loads since ME as a factor alone will produce INACCURATE results. Looking at Cartridges of The World 5th edition pg 137 you will find that the smokeless version of the 50-110 Win Express makes 11.32 ft lbs of free recoil the BP loading with the same advertised ballistics makes 19.78. Then compare the ME of this load to the ME and recoil of the 30-40 Krag with 220 gr bullet.
Then in SHOTGUNS (see the note at the bottom of the page) the 12 ga 3 1/4 dr, 1 1/4 oz BP load makes 31.5 the smokeless 28.0.
So the increased recoil produced by BP for a given ME must be factored in.
BTW if you miss the vitals with ANY bullet, you got a problem, using a conical is not going to make a lot of difference.
So missing the vitals of a deer is not a reflection on the bullet design, bullet design cannot overcome poor shooting. Assuming the exact same shot would magically work better because the elongated bullet is used is simply assumption.
Tired of typing and proof reading.
Dan