Author Topic: Period powder measure replacements?  (Read 12491 times)

Offline Artificer

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Period powder measure replacements?
« on: June 05, 2010, 08:37:50 PM »
I didn't want to hijack another thread, but it brought a question to mind.

There is documentation that the powder that got to the frontier was of varying qualities at various times. 

I have always assumed someone would try his powder measure when he got a new batch of powder.  If the accuracy was still there in the rifle, he would continue to use the old powder measure.  However,if the new powder needed more volume for the rifle to shoot well, he would "hog out" the old measure or make a new one.  However, I have nothing to document this. 

I confess that at times I have to stop myself from contaminating what might have been done with my own long experience with NM shooting.  I also don't know just what accuracy was considered "accurate" in the 18th century.  Heck, the term "accurate" in modern rifles varies a great deal by rifle and use of the rifle and I've often wondered if it did as well back then.

Gus 


Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »
Wallace Gussler's article in the June Muzzle Blasts has an old powder measure that might be of interest to your question.  It has apparently been modified to use with another rifle and even was stuffed with tow to limit the capacity. 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 08:53:00 PM »
Thanks Jerry.

Gus

Offline skillman

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2010, 04:19:15 AM »
Gus
I Made a copy of an adjustable measure seen in "the illustrated encyclopedia of the american revolution" and I use it as my adjustable measure of choice. There are a great many measures shown in this book.
Steve
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msw

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2010, 04:28:11 AM »
Artificer, you gotta admire a man who's willing to challenge the basic underlying assumptions...

your point is subtle and brilliant... please tell me that you teach High School history somewhere.

i'd be willing to bet that there's some unexplained bees wax in a lot of original powder measures.


Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2010, 04:57:42 AM »
MSW,

I wish I could tell you I teach High School History, but I never had or made time to get a College Degree.   I was either too busy with studies and assignments leading to become a Master Gunnery Sergeant (E-9) of Marines,  National Match gunsmithing with some "artificer work" in black powder gunsmithing, re-enacting and a very heavy dose of personal historic research.  I have lectured at High Schools and at living histories, though. 

For whatever reason, I've always been extremely interested in how things were done with the technology of the times in history. 

Thank you for the kind words.
Gus 


Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 05:05:36 AM »
Gus
I Made a copy of an adjustable measure seen in "the illustrated encyclopedia of the american revolution" and I use it as my adjustable measure of choice. There are a great many measures shown in this book.
Steve

Thanks Steve, I've owned that book shortly after it was first printed and worn the pages thin over the years.

You are correct an adjustable measure would have been just the thing for those on the frontier who could not count on a steady supply of the same kind of powder.  What I wonder about is would these have been common on the frontier due to their expense?   Or would the expense be justified as the rifle was the main source of food, barter items and of course self defense? 

Gus

Offline skillman

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 06:17:27 PM »
Gus
I don't know that they would have been common on the frontier'but "poor powder" wasn't just a problem on the frontier. Any excuse to build another neat trinket should not be wasted.
Steve
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 08:48:48 PM »
And this discussion raises a "prior question" for me. Given (and maybe not) that both powder and lead were also precious on the "frontier," would they have accepted it as a legitimate expense to essentially re-zero a gun with each new batch of powder? :-\
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

BrownBear

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 09:43:00 PM »
I can't speak for history, but if the gun was my main source of food and defense, test firing a new batch of powder would have been about the first thing I did after buying it.  Maybe even buying a small sample, testing it, then deciding whether to buy more.  But I'm that way about new (to me) materials and material sources today.  I buy a little, test it, and if it works I stockpile lots against the day it might not be available any more.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2010, 09:52:52 PM »
Gus
 Any excuse to build another neat trinket should not be wasted.
Steve

LOL!  That was great.

Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 12:34:26 AM »
Kermit and BrownBear,

At many living histories over the years, I've often commented many modern people look at people in historic time periods as "animated mannikins" rather than as people.   I try as best I can to put myself in their place with what they had in the way of experience and knowledge, though that can still lead to historic anachronisms depending on my current knowledge of the times. 

Any of us who have ever developed a good accuracy load for a BP rifle knows the importance of ball size, patch type and thickness, the type and granulation of powder, etc., etc.   I would suggest that anyone who had to get food or survive human hostiles with their rifles, had to know how well their rifle shot and where their rifle hit at different ranges.  Combine that with the fact that we have plenty of documentation on how well  so many of the early Riflemen could shoot, my considered speculation is that they must have tried new powder and changed measures when necessary. 

Gus

roundball

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 04:18:14 AM »
YET.....at the same time, aren't we also under the impression that "covering a ball in the palm of the hand" was close'nuff...

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 05:28:02 PM »
Roundball,

That may have been a "starting point" for many loads, or it may have been acceptable in an emergency, or it may have been nothing more than an Old Wive's tale repeated again and again over the years.  In the movie "The Gunsmith of Colonial Williamsburg," they show and talk about firing the rifle over canvas or snow to ensure no unburnt powder came out and was wasted.   We have to remember that was done by the gunsmith before the rifle was delivered and I've always assumed that was also seen as a "starting point" for a load. 

Though I don't know what group size an original 18th century rifle would have held at 100 when new or properly maintained, and when we read the accounts the Riflemen shot offhand and in other positions (even if we figure in there was some "embellishment" in the accounts by someone not very familiar with the backwoods riflemen); I've always thought the rifles would have had to have held a group size of no more than 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards to do the kind of shooting they did.   

Gus


Offline bgf

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 07:31:22 PM »
As far as hunting in the backwoods of the frontier in the 18th century, I doubt accuracy of the type we demand was necessary.  Much food and fur was probably trapped rather than shot, and the bigger game that was shot probably was either not as wary as we are used to or likely to come looking for the hunter (not to mention hostile humans).  Now, it is not big game, but we have a rabbit explosion this year and they are easy to get close to: this morning one sat happily for at least 5 minutes just 20 feet from me.  My theory is that most hunters got pretty close (within 30 yards?) to their game, and that accuracy was not depended on to the extent that we seem to think is necessary.  There were, of course, exceptional long range shots, and they were treated as such, i.e., remarked upon and celebrated.

The 19th century brought both more timid game and more leisure time in the east, for target shoots (I seem to remember that Davy shot in contests), and greater distances as well as larger game in the west.   All of these factors demanded better long-range accuracy.  At this point, I think we place too much emphasis on the shooting and too little on the actual hunting.

Anyway, that's my baseless theory.  I doubt they did anything with the measure unless they changed rifles or were trying to save powder.  I'm no authority, just hadn't seen this viewpoint expressed.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 10:28:22 PM »
Roundball,

That may have been a "starting point" for many loads, or it may have been acceptable in an emergency, or it may have been nothing more than an Old Wive's tale repeated again and again over the years.  In the movie "The Gunsmith of Colonial Williamsburg," they show and talk about firing the rifle over canvas or snow to ensure no unburnt powder came out and was wasted.   ...
Gus

I would have agreed that the covering the ball was a wives tale until I read period documents like this one in which James Audubon described a hunter preparing to head out on a coon hunt in the early 19th Century:
"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
There are many more documents that do refer to using a measure and some of these were recently published in a Muzzle Blasts article.
Gary
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Online T.C.Albert

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 11:00:02 PM »
Didnt Audubon also describe Boone repeatedly "barking"squirrels..thats fine target shooting and hunting all rolled into one...

and else where (but where??) I thought I'd also read where Kentucky rifles were customairly loaded with increasingly bigger powder loads till they made a sound that "cracked like a whip" when fired, then a measure made to hold that charge...indicating the load was developed by sound as well as experience?

TCA
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:01:48 PM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2010, 11:13:11 PM »
Gary,

Thanks for that info.  One sure can't beat historic documentation !

Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2010, 11:18:03 PM »
TCA,

Glad you mentioned barking squirrels as I forgot  to mention it.  That certainly would require a higher level of accuracy to do that even when you are shooting 20 to 30 feet in an upright direction.  Also have to know how much below the squirrel you have to aim both to bark it and so you don't shoot over the tree rat.

Gus

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 05:29:03 AM »
One of my areas for research for the last 10-15 years has been colonial store account books and I have never found anything that would indicate that a shooter purchased a small amount of powder and tested it in his rifle before purchasing a quantity. In fact out of many dozens of recorded powder purchases I can't recall even a handful where less than a pound of powder was purchased at one time.

Today at lunch Larry Luck and I were talking about this thread and we realized that there is yet another factor to keep in mind--the powder horn was probably not completely empty when the newly purchased powder was added! That would mean that the shooter was actually using a mix of the old batch and the new. Shell gas on top of Exxon on top of Texaco if you will.

There are many conclusions that proposed but one worth considering is that commercially available powder was much more consistant that some have assumed and the blend shot pretty much the same from purchase to purchase.

Gary
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Online T.C.Albert

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2010, 04:49:34 PM »
Gary..great point, and it does indeed make sense... I had always thought and taken it for granted that a fine non adjustable measure or charger was indeed made to serve the particular gun it was made for, for a long long time, perhaps supporting your point as well...if a new measure needed to be made for each time a powder horn was filled, or a new batch of powder bought, I would think old measures would be: a.) much more plentiful ... b.) or made to be more or less disposable. It seems that your research would also imply that there was really no need for a new measure all the time.

Sure, you can adjust a measure by stuffing it with tow or dripping hot wax into it, but it stands to reason that the powder strength was more or less uniformly predictable and expected to be so...to the point that powder containers could be made from enough lead to predictably shoot up the powder they contained.
(early 19th century Lewis and Clark?? were they the first to do that?)
TCA


  
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:09:05 PM by T.C.Albert »
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BrownBear

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2010, 06:48:30 PM »
The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen.

Call it lack of research or a brain gap, but that's the first I recall hearing of using the knife handle to start a ball.  Simple as pie and sure makes sense, perhaps splaining the lack of early short starters.  Thanks.   Look for dents in all my knife handles in the near future.   ;)

Offline Simon

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 09:17:53 PM »
I have a question for  you shooters about using a ball in the palm of the hand to determine the amount of powder  to  use.  How many of you have does this and what were your results?   I have tried this many times and can't get nearly the same amount of powder each time , to say nothing of the amount I spill while getting the powder into the barrel. needless to say accuracy suffers.  This could be convenient if I could be consistent.  What methods do you use to  accomplish this.   
Mel Kidd

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2010, 11:58:38 PM »
One of my areas for research for the last 10-15 years has been colonial store account books and I have never found anything that would indicate that a shooter purchased a small amount of powder and tested it in his rifle before purchasing a quantity. In fact out of many dozens of recorded powder purchases I can't recall even a handful where less than a pound of powder was purchased at one time.

Today at lunch Larry Luck and I were talking about this thread and we realized that there is yet another factor to keep in mind--the powder horn was probably not completely empty when the newly purchased powder was added! That would mean that the shooter was actually using a mix of the old batch and the new. Shell gas on top of Exxon on top of Texaco if you will.

There are many conclusions that proposed but one worth considering is that commercially available powder was much more consistant that some have assumed and the blend shot pretty much the same from purchase to purchase.

Gary

Gary, this is part of the reason I enjoy this forum so much is that you and others have been so willing to share your knowledge and expertise.  

Your account of people buying about one pound of powder or more makes sense.  That then begs the question from the store accounts on how much powder the store bought or had brought in at a time and the number of possible customers the store regularly serviced.  Here's why:

First, I do not know how often the stores on the frontier or at least western counties received goods from the Tidewater region.  Was it every two weeks, every month, or possibly every two to three months, or more before the winter?  That and the amount of customers they served would be important.  The store keepers  would want to have just enough powder so they wouldn't run out before the next shipment came in, I figure.  (They would probably stock up heavier near winter, especially if it was difficult to get to the store.)   Otherwise, the store keeper would keep money tied up that would not make him more money and that would make it harder to pay his bills.  

Next we would have to consider what kinds of customers the store would service.  Were they mainly townsfolk, craftsmen, laborers and farmers?  As a store keeper, one could better judge how much powder to keep on hand to service them and you would not have to stock as much, depending on how long it took for the goods to be transported in a timely manner.  If the store also serviced Longhunters who would have purchased small kegs of powder, they would have had to stock more in the seasons the longhunters usually bought their goods.  

What I'm getting at would be the amount of turnover of the powder purchased by the store keeper and by the customers buying it.  Longhunters would have the exact same powder measure for a long time, as they would have purchased more of the same powder so they would not run out.  No need to make or adjust a measure when you are shooting the same stuff for some time.  I would guess the same would hold true to a certain point for plantations or farms/villages that were a good ways from a store or outpost.   Actually, the further they lived from a store, wouldn't even a farmer buy more than a horn full of powder to ensure he didn't run out?  The more powder the customer purchased at one time, the less often he would have to worry about having a different powder that may or would have shot differently.  Hence, the longer the time period before he would need to possibly adjust or make a new powder measure.  

I know the closer I was to the frontier and/or hostiles, the more powder I would have kept on hand.

Further, how good of a shot (and/or how good of a hunter) would the "average" customer be?   I can't remember where I read it, but I remember an historic 18th century account of a farmer hunting turkey.  He would "mark" in which trees the birds nested at night.  Then he would make sure he was back close to the tree just before the birds started moving and as close to dawn as possible.  Then he easily shot  the turkey in the tree.  Some of us may think this was "unsporting," but the farmer realized that was the best way to ensure a successful turkey hunt.  

As to how good a shot or how good of accuracy - what we also don't talk about much is that many people had very poor vision correction in the 18th century.   My Dad had eyes like an eagle well into his 50's (about the average life expectancy in the 18th century).  I wasn't so fortunate as I had to have glasses in second grade to see what the teacher wrote on the chalk board from a first row seat.  For that reason alone, I doubt I could have been a Longhunter in the 18th century as I couldn't and can't get most of the accuracy out of a rifle without prescription lenses - though I'm a pretty fair shot with glasses.  If people had poor vision, they may not have even realized the differences in powders as they would not have been that good of shots anyway.  As such, no need to change powder measures as often.

Just some thoughts.

Gus
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 12:09:16 AM by Artificer »

omark

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Re: Period powder measure replacements?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2010, 08:58:31 AM »
cost would be a big factor in how much powder people bought at 1 time. when i first started shooting BP in the early 70's, i read powder during the fur trade/ buffalo hunting days was the equivelent of about $500 a pound. at that rate, i sure couldnt keep much in stock.  mark