Royland Southgate rifle/pistols

[pulaski]

Any info on the value of a R.Southgate perc.rifle and 2 pistols , one flint the other perc.
Got an e-mail from a gentleman who has the 3 above mentioned items . They are consecutively numbered .
He's looking to sell them and wants a price .Don't necessarly want to cheat him out of a fair price but don't want to give my money away .
They have a commen "no frills" look with 2small inlays on the pistols .
Any help is greatly appreciated .
Thanks , Steve

[Mike Brooks]

His plain rifles sell for about $400 around here, pistols somewhat less than that.

[pulaski]

Thanks Mike appreciate the help .
Steve

[Ben Gorey]

Hey Mike:  Any Southgate guns for sale in your area, let me know.

[SCLoyalist]

I've seen some Southgate rifles (flint) on Dixie Gunworks and one of the auction sites with price tags in the $900 to 1200 range.   They're not there now, so I'm assuming they sold somewhere around those prices.  You can do a google search on "Royland Southgate" and get some hits that might provide some useful info.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/pdf_datasheet.php?products_id=11982&osCsid=7651dfcdf270b3c1edacf9c9e097c8a9

Condition of the guns would be key, whether like new or 'used and abused' would be a big driver, obviously.

Good luck.

[smokinbuck]

I have to agree with Loyalist. A "good" Southgate rifle, especially in flint, will bring !,000 - 1,500 and a "good' pistol will bring an easy $400 - 600. I'll take the $400 rifles all day long. I've got a nice pistol in .38 caliber.
Mark

[Mike Brooks]

You guys would pay that kind of money for slab sided lumpy rifles? I'll go out and buy all I can find for a tidy resale profit. Probably become a millionaire.$$$$$$

[smokinbuck]

Mike,
Nobody is saying that Royland's rifles, or pistols, were a thing of beauty. His "Tennessee Maids", as he callled his rifles, were typically as plain as they come. He embellished some as the customer wanted but they all shot well, plain or fancy. Visiting with him at Rebel Hill was always a treat.
Mark

[Ephraim]

If it wasn't for men like Royland Southgate keeping this craft alive we would not be where we are today with gun building .They inspired the study of builders of the past and that is why we see the guns we see today. If you look at the antique rifles not many were perfect ether.
Ephraim

[Jim Kibler]

I'm usually the last person to defend perceived sub par work, but I do think you need to keep in mind when he was working.  Things are vastly different today and have been for some time.

[44-henry]

I also will take all the $400 slabside  Southgate rifles I can get, it certainly would be a better investment than the rest of my portfolio has proven to be. Come to think of it I would also be happy to take any nasty old Hacker Martin rifles for that price.

[Dphariss]

You guys would pay that kind of money for slab sided lumpy rifles? I'll go out and buy all I can find for a tidy resale profit. Probably become a millionaire.$$$$$$

Thank you.
Some people can't tell a gun with horrible lines from one with good lines. Unfortunately some of them are making guns.
Prices:
People need the realize that what DGW or TOW *ADVERTISES* some gun for is often NOT what it sells for. They do accept offers for less. Sometimes LOTS less.

Dan

[Dphariss]

If it wasn't for men like Royland Southgate keeping this craft alive we would not be where we are today with gun building .They inspired the study of builders of the past and that is why we see the guns we see today. If you look at the antique rifles not many were perfect ether.
Ephraim

Yes, there are original rifles that are clunky and poorly formed. But why would anyone actually COPY one? For all we know they are restocks or rifles stocked by someone who worked on muskets during the rev-war  "rush" and then thought he was a gun stocker afterwards and made a few guns.
Southgate made guns that were functional but he apparently either had no eye for line or did not care.
Every gun I make as some error of some sort that I don't care much for. But I don't set out to recreate errors.
While Southgate was making guns there were others making rifles with far nicer lines etc etc. So keeping the craft alive while making guns with poor lines is not a bell ringer for me. This said there appear to be people who intentionally make very ugly guns, far worse than Southgate's work, then people will tell them how nice they are. Rifles of this sort appear with disgusting regularity on the "blog" and most people know what I am talking about, or should.
Its like comparing a nicely formed wheel thrown teapot or pitcher with some ceramic "art" that looks like Dog @#$%/!! with sticks stuck in it that appear on the covers of ceramics art magazines on a regular basis. Rifles or teapots ugly is ugly.

Dan

[Mike Brooks]

If it wasn't for men like Royland Southgate keeping this craft alive we would not be where we are today with gun building .They inspired the study of builders of the past and that is why we see the guns we see today. If you look at the antique rifles not many were perfect ether.
Ephraim

Yes, there are original rifles that are clunky and poorly formed. But why would anyone actually COPY one? For all we know they are restocks or rifles stocked by someone who worked on muskets during the rev-war  "rush" and then thought he was a gun stocker afterwards and made a few guns.
Southgate made guns that were functional but he apparently either had no eye for line or did not care.
Every gun I make as some error of some sort that I don't care much for. But I don't set out to recreate errors.
While Southgate was making guns there were others making rifles with far nicer lines etc etc. So keeping the craft alive while making guns with poor lines is not a bell ringer for me. This said there appear to be people who intentionally make very ugly guns, far worse than Southgate's work, then people will tell them how nice they are. Rifles of this sort appear with disgusting regularity on the "blog" and most people know what I am talking about, or should.
Its like comparing a nicely formed wheel thrown teapot or pitcher with some ceramic "art" that looks like Dog @#$%/!! with sticks stuck in it that appear on the covers of ceramics art magazines on a regular basis. Rifles or teapots ugly is ugly.

Dan

Well, I think Dan pretty well covered it.
 I'm fully aware of when R Southgate worked and his contribution to the modern evolution of the KY rifle. He was doing good work for the time period which he worked and what he had to work with and compares well with his few contemporaries.  I just can't justify paying that kind of money for guns that ugly, no matter who's name is on them, no offence meant to Mr. Southgate.  If you fellows are willing to pay over 1 K for one of these things, the rest of us need to raise our prices several thousand dollars!
You can polish a #$@* all you want, but it's still a #$@*.

[Mike Brooks]

Let me just add, there is a rapidly growing collector interest in Southgate's guns. If someone will pay 1K for one of his guns then that is what they're worth on today's market. They just aren't worth that to me as they're !@*%&@ hard to look at.

[LynnC]

If I remember right, Mr Southgate built a lot of home made machinery an fixtures to manufacture his rifles on.  Sorta the first "TC or CVA" of their day.  Pretty much built them lock, stock and barrel plus furniture.  I would guess that his archetecture lent itself to machine made methods.  Though his guns don't meet todays custom standards I think he still beat TC and CVA in the  more authentic looks dept.

[smokinbuck]

Mike,
I agree with you, and the rest of the comments also. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and value is what someone will pay.
Mark

[art riser]

to each his own...