Interesting gun on Gunbroker

[longhunter1757]

My apologies if this has already been posted.
I saw this while cruising GB. Wish I had the money for something like this but alas, married with children can really screw up a hobby.
I'm assuming, to my untrained eye, this is a late Allentown/Reading style.
Regardless, it sure is nice.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=172657682

Rich

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Shoot!!! that is gun is within two miles of me. Wonder who Gary is. I sent him an email.

[mr. no gold]

Hasn't this gun been on the Forum before? Seems to me there was considerable discussion about it. Things like the lock (replaced?, or not), the 'Indian' as an inlay in a location not usually found, and the side plate to name a few points. Not sure it is a gun I would pay the 'Buy it now' price', not even at half that price.
I think that JTR considered buying this gun once upon a time but he and the owner could not come to terms over it. If not this one, its twin.
Than you for posting it so all could see it. It is a pretty gun and looks to be Lehigh, perhaps.
Regards-Dick

[longhunter1757]

I wondered about that Indian inlay also. Perhaps an afterthought from a second or third owner. The lock does appear to be replaced also.
I've never seen a sideplate like that but then again I'm extremely far from being an expert on these.


Rich

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have an appointment to see the gun tonight. I will let you know what I learn.

[mr. no gold]

Good luck with it, Tim. Hope that it a fine piece. It certainly has potential to be put right and look like it should. Not sure after all, that the lock has been replaced, but it is quite fancy when a plainer one might have been in it and would be more correct. Let us know, too if the forearm has been replaced. There seems to be a line in the wood suggestive of a joint. The box is nice as are the decorative nails around it. So, we'll just sit in the bushes and await your next communique. Would be nice to hear that you brought it home with you at an optimistic price. Thanks-Dick

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

OK, the gun is a .62 cal smooth rifle with an English trade lock. I don't know that the lock is original to the gun but it is old. I would like to take it out and look at the interior. The roller is missing from the frizz en spring and the frizzen spring screw has been replaced with a newer but old and smaller screw so it falls out. when the frizzen spring is removed there is what appears to be the end of a screw coming through the plate above and slightly in front of the frizzen screw hole...can't figure that out. Is it the pin from the mainspring?? coming all the way through. The plate is thin compared to modern locks.  The lock has only one lock bolt and there is no sign there was ever a second one. The front of the lock mortise is broken as you can see in the pictures and looks suspiciously as if the original lock had a square front toe? The pan is attached to the plate and that appears to be original to the lock. I think the original lock was bigger in the tail or curved down a little more. There is a gap at the rear and what might be beeswax in the mortise between the bottom of the lock and the molding.

There is a small (<1/16") touch hole with no evidence of pitting or welding on the barrel that can be seen with the lock in the gun. The barrel is octagon to round with very worn corners and no wedding band. the muzzle is very thin.  There is a stamped mark on the left top oblique flat that looks like an "A" above either crossed flags or an eagle which is itself above what looks like a "C" but could be an "O". It is quite small so the A might be a point (A without the cross bar).  Anyone know what that is??

The trigger guard, plate and trigger look to be original or at least have not been off of the gun in a very long time. The patchbox, latch and cavity work and also appear to be very old. The TG bow comes up toward the triggerplate and then curves nicely and then points down as you can see in the pics on Gun Broker. I had not seen one like that before.

The buttstock is in pretty good shape with one secure crack in the toe. The forestock is another matter. It has been shattered at least once and reppaired fairly well at some time in the past. The repairs however include a number of nails, mostly headless brads but a few with thin round heads. The steel wear plate is cracked at the ends and broken in the middle but still secure. The Lehigh Indian Headtacked behind the cheekpiece appears to have been put on a long time ago as do the small brass tacks. The gun is very nicely balanced and weighs about 6+ lbs.  The front sight appears original and the rear site also appears original. It has a very fine slot cut in it. The thimbles are sound and secure and all match well. They do not appear to have been moved, or even removed. The end of the RR molding behind the nosecap seems crudely shaped.

I told Gary I wanted to do some research on the gun and I would fill him in on what I learned. I did not say whether or not I would purchase the gun.... thinking about it....

BTW he has a couple of original Sharps in shooting condition, one of which has a Schuetzen buttplate on it.

Your thoughts??

[mr. no gold]

At this point, you are the most qualified individual to comment on this rifle, having looked it over in person. A good commentary, I might add. If you are satisfied that it is a good piece, owning it would the next step. I have come to think that the lock my be at least correct, if not original even though wood is missing at various locations around the plate perimeter.
Given the checkering and the single bolt lock, I think that you are looking at a gun made between 1820 and 1830 (perhaps even later). Everything that you have described can be remedied, should one wish to do so. Good luck!
Dick 

[Bill-52]

Very good assessment, Tim. Thanks for following-up and posting it. Hope this works out for you, rifle and price!

I've been following this topic with interest as it illustrates the value of viewing a piece in person versus via photographs. Living in Massachusetts, most shows and auctions I follow are a considerable drive away. Its not a coincidence that the one piece (a sword) I regret buying at the price I paid (at auction) was one of only two pieces I've acquired without viewing in person. The other piece I acquired sight unseen (a pistol that I'm very pleased with) was, in contrast, from a well documented collection and a renowned collector.

Thanks again, Tim. Good luck. Keep us posted!

Bill

[Larry Luck]

Tim,
Thanks for the report.  In person, does it look like that Indian inlay was curved in a prior life (like inlet in a lower forestock) and then flattened to fit this application.  From the photo, it looks like a ridge in the middle part below the face.
Good luck,
Larry Luck

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Larry, I think it came off of the forestock when the wearplate was installed. I t doesn't look like there was any carving behind the cheekpiece.

Somebody has made a $2500 bid for the gun. Doesn't meet his reserve but i would think he would accept???

[mr. no gold]

The idea that the 'Indian' was moved to the rear of the cheek piece when the wear plate was put on, makes a ton of sense. The owner didn't want to lose it so he moved it. looks like it was inlaid somewhat. The brass screw doesn't go with the period, but it sure has kept the inlay in place. Just noticed that the nose cap looks like it may have been taken from an octogaonal barrel and put on this round barreled gun. It seems to have facets in the face of the cap. Also the wood is somethat wider and deeper than the cap suggesting that something has been changed. I think that the 25 dollar price would be a good deal for the seller and a buyer. There is a lot to this gun and at the same time there is a lot that could be done for it.
Dick

[JTR]

Tim, You've seen the gun, and I've only seen pictures, so a couple questions for you to ponder.

As for the injun on the butt; Is it actually narrow enough to have actually fitted on the underside of the forearm? From what seem to remember, the Lehigh injun, whether carved or inlayed, are only about 50% wider than the front end of the trigger guard extension. In the pictures, this one seems to look a lot larger than that.

The forearm wear plate; Original steel would be unusual, and how did it get broken in the center? In the picture of that area, there seems to be a vertical line in the stock in line with the break in the wear plate. Was the forestock broken there, and how did it break in what looks to be a perfectly straight vertical way? Does the wood grain, texture, stripe, ahead of the break match the wood behind the break?

The lock; The gun is obviously a single lock bolt gun and this usually indicates a percussion gun. True, it could be argued that a late gun could have a single bolt flintlock, but given that the lock doesn't fit the inlet exactly right seems to indicate the lock is a replacement. True be known, replacement locks are not unusual, and in itself might not be a big deal, but my concern is that the gun was originally a percussion and not a flinter. Myself and a jillion other guys can fill in a percussion drum hole in a way that is invisible from the exterior of the barrel, so lack of weld isn't a sure indicator.

The forearm wood; Does the remainder of the forearm wood up front match the grain, texture, finish type, of that on the back of the gun? The muzzle cap does look like it has flats on it to fit a octagon barrel, and this barrel is round up there. Also, the transition from the muzzle cap to the stock looks a little, well, unusual.

All that being said, I think it's a good looking gun for the most part and could be a decent representative example, If, all the wood is original to the gun, and it was priced accordingly. But to me, accordingly, would be less than half of the asking price. And if the wood has been replaced from the break in the wear plate forward, well, then, all you're buying is a butt stock and a barrel with a likely replaced lock.

I don't mean to throw water on your fire, but caution my friend is in order.

John

[smshea]

Caution is in order...always! Having seen only the pictures, I think I would put my money toward something with allot less questions....that's just me.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I think your considerations are sound. The forestock is so massively repaired and the grain is really covered over. Just having the Idian on the buttstock like that is also problematic. For $4-500 I might take on try ing to fix it properly but even the $2500 currently bid is certainly way more than the gun would be worth to me, given my current point in time. The gun is nice to hold....... and could be restored significantly.....but to expensive to experiment and learn on.

It has been fun getting to learn in the process, but I would just as soon by an original that has some chance of being a good investment, not just something to hang on the wall......shoot, everyone who come to my house initially thinks the guns over the fireplace that I built are antiques!!

I always have to fess up and tell them "No, those are mistakes, not age!"

Hopefully I will be able to join the ranks of you investor collectors in the not to far distant future!!

[JTR]

Hopefully I will be able to join the ranks of you investor collectors in the not to far distant future!!

Well there ol Tim ol boy, now that you say that, have I got a deal for you!

But seroiusly, there are good guns to be had, in all the price ranges. You need not spent a huge pile of cash to acquire a gun that will have a very good chance of bring more than you paid when you sell it. It just takes careful shopping, and sometimes a bit of good luck, by being in the right place at the right time, with $$$$ in your pocket.

Another thing, buy what YOU like. The one you buy is going to be hanging on your wall, and if you don't really like it, chances are you might decide to dump it before its time is right.

Also, what ever price range you're looking in, buy the best you can find and afford. This holds for a $2000 gun, as well as for a $20,000 gun. A good untouched gun will always find a buyer. However, a good gun with some well done restoration will always find a buyer as well, and most collectors will have to wink, if they say that none of their guns have had any work done to them.

I don't look at myself as an investor collector in that I eyeball every gun with the thought of how much money I can make on it when I sell it, but instead buy them because I like them. But that's not to say that I totally disregard what the gun might bring when I do part with it, because I'd like to at least get my money back.

Also, a good place to acquire a first gun might well be this forum! Maybe put a want ad in the for sale section, or email some of the collectors here with your wants and price range, and see what turns up. Chances are that even if someone doesn't have what you're looking for, they might well know someone that does.

John 
 

[jwh1947]

Dr. Tim and Scotty, you can serve on my "picker" team any day.  JTR, you raise the same issues that I've been talking about, and your comments deserve consideration. Investor collectors??? Let's look at that.  First, definition of terms:  the difference between "investment" vs. "expenditure" needs to be clarified.  An investment is, by definition, an outlay of money whereupon you intend to and finally execute a sale, with the expectation of making a profit.  You don't "invest" in a new car or a roll of Charmin.  These are expenditures, where you buy with the understanding that the item will depreciate with use or be all used up.

So, back to Kentuckies.  Are you dropping money for "investment"...honestly, now... or are you dropping money because you like the item and don't give two hoots about turning a profit?  I'm not talking about what you tell your wife; I'm talking about what you say to your inner self.  If it is the latter, knock yourself out.

OK, so a few of you still want to invest in them, too?  I have suggested before, at the threat of obscene gestures, that the way to do this is to spend your time before you spend your money and do as one of the Lehigh Mafia recently did and buy a $35,000 gun for $3500.  Now, he will turn a profit, or someday his estate settlers will.   But, if he finds someone to sell that gun to for even a discounted $30,000, chances are that this buyer is not going to turn profit anytime soon!  We are now up to what the marketplace will bear, and you are not going to alter that with a smiley face and a good story.  Water finds its own level.  So, if that last guy bought as investment, it could very well turn out to be a poor one, relative to either more reasonably priced guns in good condition or good commercial paper/stocks/bonds.  All investments carry risks, and Kentuckies are not immune.  The flies in the ointment for Kentuckies are lack of liquidity and a faltering buying base, as the big guns have priced themselves out of sensible norms and there are few, way too few, young buyers.  Show me one man...just one...who is under 40 years old and has recently bought a gun for over $15,000.  You should be able to buy a decent gun for that, right?  We collectors are not replacing ourselves.  Some day soon a bubble may burst, and this time it won't be in the housing market.  Auctioneers and dealers in this area would concur that the downturn has already begun.

You need proof?  Would someone, just one of you, show me a situation where a guy bought a biggy from a dealer and turned it for a profit (even a teeny one) within 3 years?  I don't know of any, and I dabble in the business.  So, it's like any other romance...if you love them, spend money on them.  Maybe you'll get both immediate satisfaction and long-term comfort; maybe not.    Just don't kid yourself on the investment part of it.  You can't comment on that until you sell.  And don't fall for that "you need to hold it for 10 years" story; it is merely a sales pitch used for the dealer's own convenience.  Much can happen in 10 years, especially for those over 50. To the few friends I may have left, I hope you prove me wrong, but probability is one thing I studied in college that I still use daily.  Cordially, Wayne 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

All things being equaL........which they never are I would prefer to buy a gun.......that would not decrease in value immediately because I made a stupid mistake and paid $5K for a 4500.00 gun........ That is not a good investment   If the market or some other unforeseen situation occurs......well I have a nice gun..... I wouldn't want to sell anyway unless I was in a bind probably....too many grandkids who will need guns!!

[jwh1947]

Now that makes sense.  

Let's look at it this way.  There is that certain feeling.  Your heart pounds.  You find your sleep and appetite in disarray.  You laugh at the thin air and your mind sees flowers growing from stone.  You are reminded of your first amorous encounter, but better.  You have been bitten by the bug, my friend...the bug of owning a piece of real history.  You are a collector.   We've all been there.  Those who border on the psychotic side of neurosis get the bug the worst; trust me, I have papers to prove all this.  

Now, when you get anywhere close to this border, stop and take a deep breath.  Will you feel like a more fulfilled individual if you have 10 logs on the wall rather than 5?  For me one or two great ones does it.  I know I can't own them all, and have come to the conclusion that if I could, I wouldn't.  Much better odds elsewhere. That's all I am saying.  I love guns, but, high end Kentuckies are not where I place my bets for investment.  They are there just for fun.  I'll die with my best and my kids can dump them and blow the cash.  Sounds good to me. Wayne

[longhunter1757]

Wow! Wasn't expectin gthis much discussion on the gun.
Tim I'm certainly thankful for your writeup on it. I'm in the beginning stages of learning about these things and you certainly contributed to my knowledge.


Rich Baker

[WElliott]

Tim, I don't think it is that collecting Kentuckys is that fine of an art where we worry about paying $5k for a $4500 gun.  Kentucky rifles are not like Colts or Winchesters where the slightest difference in condition or serial number could make the difference between $5k or $4500.  There are too few examples extant, particularly if you are not talking about percussion era rifles.  If you are interested in earlier Pennsylvania rifles or flintlock rifles from the South, they are rare enough that each stand on their own.  While I agree with Wayne H that Kentucky rifles should not be approached as mere investments because the market is too thin and while we do worry about whether there will be buyers in the next generation, that does not mean they cannot be good investments compared to other investment opportunities.  As many others on this board could attest, I have found bonds, stocks and even the U.S. Dollar to be uncertain investments over the short haul. 

Actually, while companies may bankrupt and currency be devalued, there will always be buyers for the best collectibles.  So, as with other collectibles, I think the approach should be: (1) spend a lot of time in study- buy books and invest the time to study; (2) study originals and talk to experienced collectors (you are doing a great job of that); (3) buy cautiously if you are spending much money; (4) buy what you really like and would be willing to own for a long time; (5) buy the best you can afford; (6) be patient; and (7) love and enjoy what you do collect.

I am a collector, not a dealer.  So I have always bought what I liked.  But, in upgrading and refining my collection, I have done some trading and selling. In some 40 years of collecting Kentucky rifles, I have lost modest amounts of money maybe two or three times.  Otherwise, I have found my collectibles to  more than keep up with inflation.  Will that be true in the future?  Who knows whether our monetary system will fail and the stock market really crash?  My course is to diversify my investments, and a nice Kentucky rifle collection is part of my approach to diversifying.

When my modest Kentucky collection is liquidated some day, I am betting that the liquidation value will at least return the initial investment, adjusted for inflation.  And I would have had a wonderful time and made many friends along the way.  But, even if some disaster occurs and my collection sells for 50 cents on the dollar invested, that will be a reasonable price to pay for a wonderful hobby and years of enjoyment.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Great points Wayne.  Actually it was a typo.. I ment to say I don't want to pay $5K for a $450.00 gun!!! However your points are well taken and I agree wholeheartedly with your approach.... Not having a lot of capital to waste. I want to be careful. As I llearn more I will continue to look. I want to find guns that I really like and would like to share with others, perhaps even inspire myself and others to build similar reproductions.

Thank you all for your help and encouragement.

[jwh1947]

Agreed.  Wayne E. and you are hitting the same chord.  Many of us have a few Kentuckys simply because we like them.  They make us feel good.  We like the history, the scarcity, the romance, the quest.  When one of the boys hits the jackpot we are all happy for him.  And, yes, those jackpots are rarer than the biggy at Caesar's.

I share the excitement of our finest collectors when I see a great gun and  have had the good fortune to handle many of the best.  Some of the men blogging here hold some of the best rifles known to exist.  If you attend KRA events, you've probably seen 1/2 of the great guns, all under one roof.  That's how rare the grand master guns are. 

Don't think that Kentucky collectors are the only ones who go off the deep end on deals.  A few hours ago I laid out 5 figures for a P38 pistol, the one pictured on p. 172 of Buxton's second volume.  There are no others like this known to exist, and it is surrounded by controversy.   Given that expensive guns are bought and sold on the greater fool theory, all I need to find now is one greater idiot.  Probably won't happen, but, I just don't care.  You see, I wanted it, and if investment were the only factor, I would not have given it a second thought.  I know the feeling, and it is pure vanity.

 In truth, I never heard a dying man remark that he was regretful because he bought too many guns or went fishing too much.  What good is a wad of money if you can't enjoy what it buys?  Incidentally, talking about wild and crazy, you have all probably heard by now that a Luger recently sold for a cool million.  Now there's a rich boy who really wanted it.  Perhaps it is all relative.

[Whitedog]

Just once, I'd like to hear about a winner of the multi million dollar Powerball ticket being an admirer and collector of Kentucky Rifles.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I am trying.....................powerball first.......right??