Author Topic: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?  (Read 12209 times)

bob243

  • Guest
Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« on: June 09, 2010, 12:13:18 AM »
Does anyone cast a sideplate like this? 



From pics of an A. Haymaker Virginia rifle.  (*not mine nor did I take the picture)

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
    • Personal Website
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 12:32:52 AM »
Better plan to cut this out of sheet and file to shape.  Don't think anyone produces it and if they did, there is a good chance it wouldn't fit your lock.  Making a sideplate is pretty much standard practice in building a rifle.

Good luck,
Jim

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 01:18:04 AM »
The hardest part of making one is finding brass of a suitable thickness if you don't have some at hand. Apart from that and keeping your sawblades from breaking, it is an easy piece to make and inlet.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3027
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 01:19:34 AM »
I notice the original in the photo has a poorly fitted sideplate, probably because he used a pre made one rather than making one to fit the lock he was using. 

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 02:28:46 AM »
Quote
I notice the original in the photo has a poorly fitted sideplate, probably because he used a pre made one rather than making one to fit the lock he was using. 

I have had this gun in my hands and there is nothing poorly fitted about it.   It is a very fine gun.   If there are any gaps anywhere it is due to 240 years worth of shrinkage.

Mark E.


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12637
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 02:48:14 AM »
I don't think Jerry is criticizing the inlet, but rather the off centre location of the two lock screws.  If the builder had moved the side plate forward about 1/16", the two screws would have been centred a bit nicer.  Still a magnificent rifle none the less.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 02:55:40 AM »
DTS beat me to it.  I actually like things like that (within reason) -- easy to tell that it was made by a mortal, probably on a budget and a schedule :).   

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3027
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 04:26:47 AM »
BGF,  I'm not knocking the rifle at all. My point could have been stated better though if I had specifically said the sideplate needed to be remade to allow getting the lock bolts centered on the washer heads.  I wanted to encourage Bob 243 to make his own sideplate.  Looking through RCA it appears many of the rifles had  lockplates  installed whiich were not specifically designed for the rifle at hand.  Probably economy measures in the shop. Many much worse than this little inletting adjustment. 

 

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
    • Personal Website
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 04:42:36 AM »
BGF,  I'm not knocking the rifle at all. My point could have been stated better though if I had specifically said the sideplate needed to be remade to allow getting the lock bolts centered on the washer heads.  I wanted to encourage Bob 243 to make his own sideplate.  Looking through RCA it appears many of the rifles had  lockplates  installed whiich were not specifically designed for the rifle at hand.  Probably economy measures in the shop. Many much worse than this little inletting adjustment. 

 

Import locks, which were most commonly used, came with lock bolts drilled due to their case hardened surface.  If the gunsmith cast his sideplate with a predetermined pattern, it's understandable how the less than perfect alignment sometimes seen results. 

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 05:10:51 AM »
Jerry,
I was agreeing with you, I thought :).  I just meant that minor, honest mistakes (or limitations) don't make the whole rifle a failure (obviously it is not), which also agrees with what you are saying, I think.  If someone were to copy the rifle or use it as a starting point, it would be a little cheesy, in my opinion, to make exactly the same mistake, so we agree on all counts, I hope.

Jim,
I'm assuming the rear screw is a dummy, or did some locks (or that lock specifically) have three bolts?  If its a dummy, he definitely could have located the sideplate a little more exactly before inlet.  If its a real bolt, that limited his options.

Offline smshea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
    • www.scottshearifles.com
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 05:14:03 AM »
curious...are there anymore pics of this rifle?

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 05:28:16 AM »
I think it is "The Haymaker" as seen here http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/adam_haymaker.html, for example.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3027
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 05:40:15 AM »
Do you think the wood shrunk that much or did the builder leave the tang proud of the wood - or is something else happening to pull the tang that high above the wood?   None of the other wood appears to have lost that much to shrinkage. 

g.pennell

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 05:58:15 AM »
Several more pictures in RCA Vol. II, it's number 131.  Mel Hankla has some more color shots, and a brief history of the rifle on his website.  Funny this should come up...I'm working on a rifle inspired by this one, and just made that sideplate last weekend...

Greg

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
    • Personal Website
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 06:18:25 AM »

Jim,
I'm assuming the rear screw is a dummy, or did some locks (or that lock specifically) have three bolts?  If its a dummy, he definitely could have located the sideplate a little more exactly before inlet.  If its a real bolt, that limited his options.

The rear screw is a wood screw.  This lock never had three bolts.  Three screws were common on some earlier trade gun locks.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 07:52:23 AM »
I made a sideplate like this some time ago.  Just make sure your wood screw doesn't interfere with your trigger.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Michael

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 02:23:24 PM »
Better make sure the judges at Dixon's don't see this gun ;D ;D

Offline G-Man

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 03:02:59 PM »
The third (wood) screw at the rear is a residual early feature and actually quite practical - keeps the sideplate from falling out when you remove both lock bolts.  In addition to the undesirable loss of a sideplate, some of those early fowlers and tradeguns with serpent like and viney shapes, piercings etc, can get sort of bent and springy after being compressed by the lock bolts and could easily chip out the wood along their edges if they pop off off (personal experience  :-\).  

As Jim pointed out, some early English guns actually had a third bolt at the rear of the lock, which seems to have evolved to a residual feature in the form of the woodscrew on some fowlers and fusils (too keep the sideplate attached when removing the lock).  The rear woodscrew crops up occasionally on some American longrifles, particularly southern guns, even some relatively late.

The tang looks to have been bent a bit to me - I don't think that is all wood shrinkage.  

The rifle could stand on its own merits as but has the rare benefit of being known to have "been there" on the Kentucky frontier.  If you are interested in the rifle, take the time to read the history of its original owner, Hancock Taylor, on Mel's website.  One of the most astounding tales of exploration and adventure by an American in pre-Rev. times, and to think that this gun was there on the Kentucky frontier in 1774  and has survived places it in a category with few, if any other, known longrifles.  
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 03:37:03 PM by Guy Montfort »

bob243

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 05:36:06 PM »
Thanks for all the replies, allot of helpful ideas and thoughts. 

I wasnt sure if I could post links to the other site, it is why I only posted the picture.   I ran across it when looking for ideas to build something influenced out of VA.   Not sure what drew me to this one specifically but I just like it  :)     I am not trying to duplicate it,  I am nowhere near that experiance yet.   


As far as making the sideplate, is there any reason a piece of 2-1/2" wide 3/16" brass bar stock wouldn't work for this?   

   

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19330
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 06:13:06 PM »
3/16" is too thick.
I also think the sideplate is in secondary usage on this gun and came off a gun that was even earlier.
It's a great gun; one of the greatest, architecturally, for me.  Very bold.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 06:17:14 PM »
I always make a stiff paper or thin cardboard (shirt box) template of my sideplates to be sure they fit the lock I am useing. 3/16 is plenty thick though, 1/8 would be better. It also needs to be as tall and as long as the lock you are useing. It might take several templates to get it "just right"....Then trace and cut....Ed
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:20:52 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
    • Personal Website
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 06:24:25 PM »
I'm in agreement, 3/16" is too thick.  1/8" is plenty and often 3/32" is more appropriate, even for a design with beveled edges.

bob243

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 06:59:07 PM »
Thanks,  I will go with 1/8".   

Longknife,  still being new to this, I had a few times where I would try to trace something out on paper, find it to be too thin, and just struggle through it without it..     I think a shirtbox will work perfect for the things I was trying.   Thanks for that tip

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 07:27:22 PM »
Thanks,  I will go with 1/8".   

Longknife,  still being new to this, I had a few times where I would try to trace something out on paper, find it to be too thin, and just struggle through it without it..     I think a shirtbox will work perfect for the things I was trying.   Thanks for that tip

What I often do is draw teh pattern on paper, then glue it onto thin cardboard before cutting it out. You can also glue paper patterns directly onto the metal.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Larry Luck

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Larry Luck
Re: Does anyone cast this Virginia sideplate ?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 05:34:39 PM »
I use regular copier paper to make the pattern. 

After drilling the lock bolt holes and completing the lock inletting, I place a piece of paper on the side panel and make a rubbing of the holes with a no. 2 penci to get the exact relative location.  Then I'll draw my sideplate on the paper.  Once I'm satisfied, I'll cut it out a little outside the lines and place it in position to make sure I like how it fits.  If I don't like it, I'll do it over. 

If I like it, I'll use my 1st grader's Elmer's school glue (comes off with water) and glue it to a piece of brass, drill the holes, hacksaw to a close approximation of the sideplate and then file to the lines on the paper. 

The paper also allows the future engraving to be layed out so it can be incorporated into the overall sideplate design.  (I use the same paper technique for patchboxes and toeplates.)

If you carefully soak the paper, it will come off in a single piece and dry, preserving the engraving design for later.

Good luck,

Larry Luck