Earliest Lehigh Rifle?

[longhunter1757]

Gentlemen,
   Can anyone tell me what is the earliest Lehigh Valley style rifle? I'd like to build as early a version as possible but most of what I'm finding is 1780-1800 timeframe. Is there a maker that goes back to somewhere near 1760?

Thanks in advance!

Rich Baker

[Tom Currie]

My understanding is that the fully developed Lehigh that we know today didnt exist before around 1790. John Moll maybe is the eraliets recorded that made the " Legigh style ".Kindigs book #s 63 thru 66 have what appear to be early Lehighs.

[axelp]

Brent Gurtek made my lehigh and based upon originals and his own educated guesses, he produced his interpretation of a early Lehigh.... I think the year he worked with was about 1780, and it is folksy and his usual rustic style.

[rich pierce]

Lots of questions pop into my head; the first being  "when is a Lehigh a Lehigh?"  Does it have to have the double curve to the underside of the buttstock?  What is the relationship between Christian's Spring and Lehigh rifles?

There's a great article by George Shumway in an old Muzzle Blasts called Lehigh Evolution or something like that.  In it is pictured an early rifle with some strong connections to some later Lehigh pieces.  I'd go look at Allen Martin's site where he built a rifle with some features from that early Lehigh predecessor (look at this page, top rifle  http://www.allenmartinrifles.com/html/other_schools.html), and Eric Kettenburg's site, of course (start with this page http://web.mac.com/kettenburgs/Site/Early_Arms.html#grid..

[longhunter1757]

God I love Allen Martin's guns!

These are pretty much the answers I expected.
Am I correct in understanding that what we call the Lehigh with the Roman Nose profile, stepped wrist, etc. didn't come into being until 1790ish and later and there are no pre-rev war Lehigh type guns?
If so then my next question would be if a person would have been living in the Allentown/Lehigh Valley area around 1760 what style/school of gun would he have had?

Thanks again!

Rich

PS - please bear with me as I'm not well versed on the various styles and schools and am in the process of learning.
I really need to get a copy of Kindig's book.

[rich pierce]

(just my ideas; everybody has their opinions on dating early guns)

He'd have had a gun from anywhere in eastern PA.  If you want to go back to 1760, consider guns that could have been made by Andreas Albrecht and others at Christian's Spring, Abraham Berlin, Johannes Moll, etc.  Maybe Antes goes back that early; I have to think about that.  Read Eric Kettenberg's articles on his website; they are a tremendous resource.

Guns to use as examples include:
The Musician's Rifle (there is not a complete set of photos and write-up on this one but EK built a rifle with many of it's characteristics http://web.mac.com/kettenburgs/Site/1750s_Rifle.html and Wallace Gusler included a few photos in some of his Muzzle Blasts articles).  This gun may be 1750's; it has a scratched in date 1756, I think.

The Marshall rifle, which may be over-represented among re-enactors, and is either a 1760's rifle or a restock of a 1760's rifle in many people's estimation.  See Jim Chambers' kit.

The Deschler gun (see EK's articles), a cherry stocked, brass-barreled smooth rifle with a side-opening patchbox.  Might need to back-date this one with a sliding wooden patchbox.

A gun in RCA (is it 17?) sometimes attributed to Antes.  EK used this one as inspiration on one of his creations http://web.mac.com/kettenburgs/Site/Early_Arms.html#6.

RCA 19 is probably from west of there, and maybe 1760's; it's a smooth rifle, walnut stocked, with a conglomeration of furniture and no hallmark features that can point to a maker or region.

RCA 40, sometimes related to the Christian's Spring guns, is a "transitional" piece with an open guard and heavy Germanic styling.  The carving is not up to Moravian standards in my estimation, so I see a relationship but doubt it was made by the Moravian gunsmiths in Bethlehem.

There is a short rifle in RCA volume 2 (possibly RCA 120; I don't have the books here) that I tentatively attribute to perhaps Abraham Berlin just based on lock panels.  It has the thumbnail buttplate extension, and really early styling to the buttstock and cheekpiece treatment.  it's presented as is.  I'd disregard the guard completely.

Just some places to start; see what inspires you.  The important thing is to have no feature that could not have been present in the 1750's, so get an early barrel profile, an early enough lock, and early enough Germanic furniture, no matter what stylistic characteristics you prefer.

[longhunter1757]

richpierce,
   It is very apparent to me that I need to seriously upgrade my book collection. Of course the good thing is my wife doesn't give me near the grief for books as she does for guns.

   I've been looking through a bunch of stuff online today and I did come across Wolfgang Haga and his tax records say he's built guns from 1767 onward to his death and it seems to be accepted that he was also building at least a few years prior to this. However I am a little leary to build a gun on the pretense of what might have been.
   Perhaps I should explain the goal I am trying to reach. I'm looking for a rifle or smooth rifle that would have been carried by a settler/hunter/common man who would have come west from the eastern PA region and settled around the Pittsburgh area just after the F&I war, say in and around 1764-1768.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Rich

[rich pierce]

There are plenty of other early PA gunsmiths but no signed, dated 1760's rifles from them, except the Schreit rifle, 1761, which has been altered some.  I gave you a half dozen good leads above.   My responses above focused on Lehigh and to the east.  None of the above interesting, or they won't work?    If you are interested in something that could have been made by Wolfgang Haga early on, get Rifles of Colonial America Volume 1 and look at rifles 21 and 22. Or go here http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/reading.html.

If you want something documentable with a date, the Schreit 1761 rifle is the only one, and it has had a lot of changes since it was first collected, so a straight copy from the current photos would be "wrong" for 1760's.  It now definitely has the wrong guard and an altered toeline, maybe not the original sideplate, maybe a couple other details have been changed from when it was made and used.

Now you're on your own! 

[longhunter1757]

Rich,
   Not by any means. I fully appreciate your answers. Looked every maker up and browsed Kettenburgs site for quite a long time. I'm really liking that Reading rifle though. I was just trying to clarify why I was asking. Your second reply however clarified it more than I'd hoped. No rifles dated as early as I'd hoped.
  I definitely plan to accumulate a few more books and the one you mentioned is on the list.

Again, many thanks for your insight.

Rich

[Swampwalker]

I was also thinking about the Schreit rifle - wouldn't it be great to see a good recreation of this rifle as it might have originally looked - with a more open, germanic style triggerguard, and with the step back in the wrist?  Food for thought.

[HIB]

Gentlemen,    Take a look at the recent posts in the 'Antique Collecting' forum under the heading 'new book'.  It may add to the solution and the fine ideas already put forth on this subject.  Regards,   HIB

[jwh1947]

If the new book is anything like the previous KRA publications, purchasers can order with confidence.  All good.  Much material otherwise unavailable.  The Kentucky Rifle Foundation is to be commended for giving the publications/education aspect of the club a real shot in the arm.  I hear that there is a screw-tip horn book in the pipeline, too.  This is much needed and I look forward to this one, also.  Good work, guys and gals. 

Rumor also has it that about 20 of the world's finest Lehighs will be featured this year.  Why not get a couple photos of this display up on ALR so that the whole extended family can see them.  There is more than a little interest in these pieces...even the "hockey stick" ones.     Many people could learn from and appreciate such a display, and the educational mission of the association would be reaching out in a new direction.  When the readership here sees the quality that we are used to in KRA, I'd wager that more than a couple eligible non-members might get converted.  Just a thought.  Wayne

[HIB]

Gentlemen,   The  KRA display described above will be photographed and made into a full color professionally designed CD.  When it is ready the world will know in an instant. The distribution plan includes direct mail and availability at CLA and KRA mini shows. Look for Issue I, Vol. III    Regards,    HIB

[longhunter1757]

HIB,
   Thanks for the advice! I'll certainly look into that.

Rich

[dyted]

    This is directed primarily to Rich Pierce.  I live just outside of St.L,Mo. Any chance of getting together in person and discussing the early lehigh stuff, I have talked to one the KRA and he advised me to stay away from conjecture, but that not very stimulating to me or to the subject. Also some guys seem to have strong opinions about the Lehigh School being relatively late, but Jacob Dubs Jr.s grandson wrote a long family history and claims his grandfather was building guns at the Great Swamp as early as 1734. You know I've built a few guns and when I build one for myself I put my initials on the thumb piece. Also the broken stock may have been brought over from Altofern, Zurich, maybe made by Jacob Dubs Sr.?

[rich pierce]

Would love to get together and pore over some books and talk early rifles.  The Dubbs broken stock has a date on it that many find out of line with the other features of the buttstock.  Shoot me a personal message.

[Stophel]

Yep, WAAAAY out of line!   

And there's absolutely nothing about it to connect it with Jacob Dubbs in any way.  Just "J D" on the thumbpiece and wishful thinking.

[smshea]

Yep, WAAAAY out of line!   

And there's absolutely nothing about it to connect it with Jacob Dubbs in any way.  Just "J D" on the thumbpiece and wishful thinking.

Ditto!

[Berks Liberty]

I'm really liking that Reading rifle though.

Go READING!  I'm hooked on the early Berks guns.  The rifle I'm working toward right now is going to be an early Reading with a touch of Germanic feel to it and simple carving.  Should be a nice big gun.  Just waiting for the blank to get back with the barrel inlaid.  Schreit or an early Haga is very nice. 

Jason