Lye on Cherry pictures

[bdixon]

A good soak of Lye and water to my wifes Cherry stock.  It developed a "Blondish" area above the rear portion of the lock plate. Do we live with it or is there something that can be done to blush it in???  Otherwise I like the results.
Brett.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Nice Brett!  How does the blond spot look when wet?? (Gives you an idea of what it will look like after applying varnish)

You could take a rag and carefully and lightly blend in some Laurel Mtn Foge Cherry stain there.

Otherwise that is just the wood..natural beauty!! Also I would suggest thaty you burnish the stock a little before varnish in and after the seal coat. Use a scrunched up brown grocery bag or a piece of denim and rub hard and fast.  This is where I would use a sealrt coat of 1# cut dewaxed garnet shellac to seal, sand back carefully to the stain and then burnish.... depends on how much patience you have and how much you want to play!!

[bdixon]

I havent re-wet the stock yet, wanted to get some feed back on it first, I suppose the blonde spot is not really going to bother me that much if it is what it is, I got nice figure throughout the rest of it anyway.  I do have LMF cherry stain on hand and can dilute it a bit to try,  lots of polishing from here out.  I have been using BLO for sealer on everything else I have, would this work on the cherry the same???  I usually dont go for shiny finishes.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

BLO might work. but I like Shellac better...after you sand it back to the stain ...leave none on the surface...it soaks in because it is thin and alcohol based......your BLO or other finish will go on over it. DO NOT leave it thick or shiny on the surface anywhere before you put the BLO on......  If you have a scrap, try it....  according to Kettenburg and other sources this is an often used early approach.  I like that it provides a humidity barier and fils pores and when you burnish it...you will have no problem with whiskers when you begin to apply BLO.

[Roger Fisher]

Nice Brett!  How does the blond spot look when wet?? (Gives you an idea of what it will look like after applying varnish)

You could take a rag and carefully and lightly blend in some Laurel Mtn Foge Cherry stain there.

Otherwise that is just the wood..natural beauty!! Also I would suggest thaty you burnish the stock a little before varnish in and after the seal coat. Use a scrunched up brown grocery bag or a piece of denim and rub hard and fast.  This is where I would use a sealrt coat of 1# cut dewaxed garnet shellac to seal, sand back carefully to the stain and then burnish.... depends on how much patience you have and how much you want to play!!

Carefully now!!  That LM Cherry is really RED.   Bright Cherry Red is a good description!

[bdixon]

I tried it on a test piece and it was overpowering and really blurred the figure, Now on maple it really looks good, but on this cherry stock, I was turned off immediately, Correct, VERY, VERY RED.  I have LMF sealer and finish I could probably use to seal and then use BLO over the LMF sealer, make sense??  Seals and coats without the shine??

[rifle]

I guess BLO is short for Boiled Linseed Oil. I'd go with a sealer that soaks in since BLO isn't the best sealer to keep humidity moisuture and  rain ect.ect.out of the wood.....unless you use a million very thin coats(like drops on the palm and rub it in pretty much till dry(almost). Linseed oil is one of those that adheres on the molecular level and not one coat stuck to the next. ect.ect. It can be built to be one of the best waterproofers right up there under polyurethane but....it takes a long time to get it there.
You can get an oil lookin finish with the most water proof there is..polyurethane if you thin it and let it soak in and harden in the places water gets in and at the end rub the thin coats dry(sorta). Use a cotton patch folded the size of a 1.5 to 2 inch square. Barely dampen it with mineral spirits to help when the dang polyurathane gets sticky. There's always rotten stone to take the shine off too if you don't break thru the waterproofing barrier of the polyurethane.
Honestly I've gotten polyurethane to look like an oil finish without the gloss but it gets a little frustrating. It's one of the best for a "huntin gun" that may be in a downpour all day and for wood stabilzation due to humidity. Doesn't do much for temp changes.
Anymore and the last rifles I built(Hawkens used fer huntin instead of wall hangers) I used Laurel Mountain Permalyn Gunstock Sealer and Finish. Thinned it soaks in where water wants to get and hardens there and dries fast and easy to work with and can be rubbed to look like a non gloss oil finish. It's waterproof even for a "huntin gun" that can spend days in the down pour or wet snow. Doesn't get soft from hot humidity or rain or wet snow like the BLO can.  Easy and does the job real well.
Shellac I never used so I can't comment on that. I imagine it's a "hard" finish and BLO over it wouldn't be too good right? Never a soft on a hard or a hard over a soft finish?
I do have a personel Hawken "huntin gun" I used BLO on and when it was still sticky(from an overdose of BLO) I rubbed that sticky pretty much till dry(like I imagine a burnish would be) and filled pores and got the gloss off and did it a lot of times and...over the years have gone over the finish with BLO and Linspeed and it holds up well even in the wettest times but.....it can get thinned or disolved some from the worst wet like days of downpour or wet snow. Linseed as I understand needs a never ending loving rub with more oil year after year after year. Not a bad thing to do. Easy too and I suspect that's some of the allure of the BLO. Just start rubbin. I've read of people that put a stock in linseed oil so the stuff soaks in the end grain at the bottom and comes out the top...clean thru bottom to top saturated with linseed oil. I wonder if it ever hardens inside like that.
A book on wood finishes I read stated that the top two best for waterproof were polyurethane and just under that Linseel oil. The linseed oil it stated needed at least a coupla years of contiuned thin coats rubbed in and continual touch ups that never really end.
All that said...I like the feel and the mellow look of Boiled Linseed Oil finish the best. It just has that natural beauty to it.
I should add that I'd guess if a Pard knows what he's doing with Shellac it would be a good protective finish. Me? I don't know what I'm doing with it..never used it. It comes in sticks you have to melt or something right?
I gotta ask...the lye is for what? Bring the figure out? Isn't lye an acid type thing that can harm the wood? 
Nice cherry stock in that picture up there

[bdixon]

From what I gather Lye brings out the figure and stains the cherry a bit red, Lye is a base but is pretty nasty stuff, gotta wash it off real well after your soak period, 20 minutes in this case.  I think I may go the LMF sealer route and just pull it back enough to keep the shine off..

Thanks Fellas.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The LMF sealer will work oK. There are lots of things to use. Some work better than others some are just what we have learned to use well...and some are what we think was used at least once in the 18th century!  ..For me the line is that if I am building a reproduction of an 18th century gun I don't want to use plastic finishes.......Iknow, Iknow I use a modern steel barrel and not wrought iron.......but only cause I can't aford wrought iron!!

[bdixon]

Will post again with LMF results.

[B. Hey]

Great thread guys. A good measure of information for the uninitiated in the use of lye. Is there a tutorial or other descriptive step-by-step description out there somewhere? I really like to results, BD ... Looks great.  Thanks for sharing .. Bill Hey

[Robby]

bdixon, I know that with black walnut, if you have a little sap wood, by steaming the blank it will absorb the darker pigment and won't show up as creamy white. Weather this would work with cherry, I don't know. As it stands, I would leave that light area alone. Cherry is very photo-reactive, I think if you leave it in direct sunlight as often as you can, it will catch up.
Robby

[490roundball]

bdixon66

thanks for the pics, looking forward to seeing the end result.  I have just started the layout on a bit of curly cherry and am watching for finish hints.

[bdixon]

That is probably the right thing to do Robby, I need to remind myself to not over-react with cherry since it is pretty active wood, And Rick that is a nicely figured piece of cherry you have.  My application of lye is pretty straight forward, I whiskered the stock once and then took 3 tablespoons of 100% lye to 1 quart of water and mixed well outside.  Gets warm and fumes a bit.  Then I just took a soaked rag and washed it all over in the longest strokes I could to avoid any overlaps,  Sopping wet everywhere.  I let it sit for 20 minutes and really rinsed with a garden hose.  Thats all I did with it.  My 10 minute soak test piece is lighter in color than my 20, I preferred the 20, but don't forget it will probably darken with age like Robby suggested. Oh yea wear gloves I was in a hurry and didn't.  Although my hands are cleaner today than they have been in many, many years.

Brett.

[FALout]

That blond spot looks like heart wood at the lock area.  Was there some white heart wood in that area when you started?  Otherwise the color looks good.

I've just used oven cleaner out of a spray can, spray it on and wipe the liquid around to make sure it gets everywhere I want it, wipe off excess, allow to dry off a little.  Then using water/baking soda mix, I carefully sponge bathe the stock and then allow to dry.  I don't like to drench the stock with too much water and have not had any problem with the lye attacking the metal later on.

[54ball]

 Baking Soda is a base like lye, though weaker.  A baking soda water bath may reduce the action but nothing is really neutralized.  To truly neutralize lye a weak vinegar solution in water would counteract the lye.

 With the chemistry set aside, the stock is probably stable enough when the lye solution dries or is wiped off.  It may continue to darken at a faster pace over time but should otherwise have no ill effects.

 

[jwh1947]

I'm with Dr. Tim.  I think it looks cool as is.  However, if you are determined to tone it down over the finish I suggest considering TransTint concentrated dye solution.  It is a finish toner.  You can put a few drops of dark brown into a little shellac, solvent lacquer, varnish, or even water-based products and go from there.  You can control it, blend it, and feather it into the existing work.  Homestead Finishing Products, Cleveland, OH, is the manufacturer.  You may be able to get it at a specialty woodworking store.  Otherwise: www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com.  Comes in numerous colors.   I use dark brown, light brown, red and yellow, and can match any Kentucky with a mixture of them.  Not cheap but good.

[bdixon]

The deed is done, blonde spot will stay, wife say it is what it is.  Three coats of LMF sealer this weekend and will probably use LMF finish and rub back a little, she does prefer a less shiny stock finish.  My flash distorts my curl and color a little, but you get the idea, dont pay too much attention to my carving, it is terrible.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Ok, so the bottom pic is most like the real color?? a few more coats and WOW!!

[bdixon]

Yes I would say it may be a little lighter than the bottom pic, my cam is point and shoot with poor lighting at my bench.  I dont think it will take anymore sealer except for a few very small areas of end grain.  I will probably turn to finish and rub back the shine.  Maybe try to get a few pics outside in natural light, so far I am pleased with my novice results.

[Leatherbelly]

  Question: Is lye and sodium hydroxide the same thing? Sodium hydroxide is plentiful where I work. (comes in train tank cars.aqueous solution I think)

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

yep, Lye or caustic soda

[bob243]

I am liking the color..  Hope mine come out close to that 

[rifle]

I think that's lookin pretty good. The owner will be glad the work was consigned to a "so called novic" that applied the right amount of fortitude into the recipie and is ending up with a new family heirloom. 
The wood will be sealed from humidity so that won't distort the wood. Temp change can be kept pretty constant with the piece displayed over the mantle in the den for everyone to see.
The carving ain't lookin bad to me. Simple,tastful and "flows" with the shape of the wood. How could it get any better? 
I'm with Dr. Tim about building 18th century guns and keepin it authentic. One thing it seems I've read is that "gun restorers" say there was a good bit of "varnish" of some kind used way back when. That would be interesting to find old formulas to try.
I seem to understand what a lot of people think about old time finishes is they were rubbed in and soaked in.....like linseed oil and tung oil stuff. What i've noticed,as I said, that the experts seem to suggest there was a lot of "varnish" applied with brushes.
Brushes? Varnish of some type? Like on violins or something?
What ever the oldies used musta been good since so many really old wood things have lasted a real real long time. Guns,violins,furniture ect.ect. I think waxes were in vogue way back when too. Man, too much fer my hillbilly brain to even thunk on.
All I know is the cherry stock in this thread is a nice one. Too bad the owner doesn't want the "gloss" to the finish. Man, some gloss would bring that wood grain figure "out" like a neon light.  If the gun was used for hunting the hunter would have to hunt only on cloudy days.
I say good job on the wood. Good job.
I'd like to add.... LMF Permelyn Gunstock sealer can be built to a finish. The finish gets shiny if you aren't careful about how you're rubbin. The finish is thicker than the sealer. It'll get a gloss pretty easy. I'd probably use the sealer and with a drop or two,on the dried stock, rub with the palm like with linseed oil and rub the last coats in dry. You know....a drop on the palm and rub till it's gone and seems dry. Maybe put some on...let it tack up then rub with the palm. A little tiny bit of mineral spirits can help if the palm gets too sticky.

[oakridge]

If, as FALout suggests, that is an area of heart wood, you will have to color it a little to blend it in. As the stock darkens naturally with exposure to sunlight, that area will remain in stark contrast. It will not catch up in color. Of course, you can just leave it alone if it doesn't bother you.