Author Topic: probably a dumb idea but...  (Read 6855 times)

Offline axelp

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probably a dumb idea but...
« on: June 17, 2010, 04:17:15 AM »
So I have a .58 cal rifle and I wonder if I can shoot a 54 cal ball, but with a thick leather patch... and get hunting accuracy out to 25-50 yards. Its a long story, and would take too much time to type... anyone ever try this kind of insanity? I am gonna try it anyway, but wondered...

Ken
Galations 2:20

BrownBear

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 05:05:20 AM »
Not that combo, but I shot 50 cal balls from a 54 when I got to the range with the wrong ball bag.  Took either 3 or 4 patches to firm things up as I recall, but the undersized balls shot well and to point of aim.  Leather would be an interesting alternative in the right thickness.  Keep us posted!

Offline volatpluvia

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 05:56:34 AM »
Ken,
I would think that if you made leather out of squirrel hide you would have the best leather patch you can get.  It is as tough a hide as any critter I eve skinned.  And it is very thin.  Thin enough to use the right size balls in your bore.
volatpluvia
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 07:09:55 AM »
Why?  Do you like reinventing the wheel or what? 

Offline axelp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 03:19:01 PM »
why? because I have a nice 58 cal rifle and want to use it for hunting. And I hunt in a lead ban area of CA... and this year, I want to try out the new ITX non-toxic roundball in it, but it only comes in 45, 50, 54, and 62.... not 58.

I will try this---maybe this weekend and let y'all know what happens. I have some different thicknesses of leather that should work.

thanks

Ken
Galations 2:20

Dancy

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 04:29:58 PM »
What a dumb law!!

BrownBear

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 05:30:42 PM »

I will try this---maybe this weekend and let y'all know what happens. I have some different thicknesses of leather that should work.




You might take along some ticking or other thick patching, and try using multiples just for another "opinion" about what overall thickness you need.  I guess I'm expressing a concern that there might be something in between your leather samples that works well and gives direction for another leather search.  I think you're on the right track in looking for leather.  Lots more convenient to use one patch than multiples.

Offline LynnC

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 05:56:43 PM »
You might try some blue jean material.  I've measured mat'l up to .036" thick that ought to make a tight enough load to compress in the groove bottoms.  Might also consider 2fg, less likely to blow the patch.  Hope it works out for you........Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline axelp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 07:13:21 PM »
all good suggestions and I will bring along several materials and test combinations etc...

thanks!

and yes it is a dumb law... many muzzleloaders that I know are ignoring it and hunting with lead... its just not my way.

I will try ITX... I have shot 50 cal ITX and it works pretty well at the range, so I am pretty sure it will take down a deer. I would like to have a lead free solution for my 58 though. It is a Chambers shortrifle and is so handy to carry and shoots so well...

Ken
Galations 2:20

Al Lapp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 07:38:28 PM »
Trouble with those dumb laws, there like a bad sore they just keep spreading.

Offline axelp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »
Sheesh I hope not!  But if it does, there are folks that are searching and developing alternatives... but it sure grates my cheese to have need of it...

visit: www.tomboboutdoors.com

Ken
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 07:56:30 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

BrownBear

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 08:17:53 PM »
I keep reading about ITX and wondering about casting my own from bismuth/tin alloy such as this.  I understand that pure bismuth can shatter, but the tin alloy is supposed to make it more ductile.  I don't know a thing about melting temps of the alloy or how well it would perform in my molds.  But at $7.50 a pound, we'd be talking around 25 balls per pound .  It would sure be cheaper than ITX, and I could get the size ball I wanted.

Anyone ever cast bismuth or bismuth/tin alloy?  I'm curious about temps and drop diameters compared to pure lead.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 08:53:01 PM »
Try double patch should work... I went to a .495 in my 28 smoothy years ago on a woodswalk when I left the ball bag on the bench double patched and managed to ace the course.  So, it worked that time at least. ::)

Offline axelp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 08:54:01 PM »
I have tried to mold ball from bismuth and percentages of tin and bismuth, the melting temps are fine--drop diameter is ok because bismuth actually expands a little when it cools (wierd huh?). I tried combinations of 5% increments and up... the problem I found is, that even with as much as 20% tin to 80% bismuth, the balls still don't want to hold together when impacted. they crack and shatter... I used a 4lb hammer dropped from 12 inches onto the balls as a pre-shoot test.... I also tried 100% lead free solder, and though it did not shatter, It was quite light and actually bounced off the target---(not good penetration)

Also I poured the excess bismuth/tin into an ingot to use later... when I tried to remelt and make more ball the alloy would not cooperate and the balls would crumble and fall apart when released from the mold. The alloy seems to become unstable upon a second melt-or I was doing something wrong... Try it and please share your results!!! yours might be better than mine.

Ken
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:02:46 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

BrownBear

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 09:54:27 PM »

Also I poured the excess bismuth/tin into an ingot to use later... when I tried to remelt and make more ball the alloy would not cooperate and the balls would crumble and fall apart when released from the mold. The alloy seems to become unstable upon a second melt-or I was doing something wrong... Try it and please share your results!!! yours might be better than mine.

Ken

Hmmm.  That makes me wonder about "fluxing" or some such treatment.  The shattering doesn't sound good at all, especially with first-cast. 

I wish I was more of a metallurgist (or even a little bit of a metallurgist) and could make some guesses about adding a third metal to the bismuth and tin along the lines of antimony added to lead and tin.  Seems like a fruitful line of experimentation for someone that knew just what the heck they were doing!   ::)

I dumped my muzzleloading shotgun after many years of waterfowling when steel shot requirements finally arrived in Alaska.  Bismuth shot was unavailable at that moment, and quitting was mostly a temper tantrum. 

I'd hope not to quit if lead ball is ever universally outlawed for game, so I'm determined to be more proactive in finding solutions this time around.

Anyone care to speculate about fluxing, tempering or additional metals in the alloy mix?

Offline axelp

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Re: probably a dumb idea but...
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 10:10:24 PM »
TomBob also makes ITX non-toxic shot in various sizes. I have heard good things about it and you can literally smash it easily with a pair of pliers. I tried it in my fowler and it seems to pattern fine. I hunted turkey with it this Spring to test it... Never got a shot though... I assume that was because my calling sounded more like a sick hound dawg... But I am gonna try again come Fall...

I have read that ITX is not to be used in choked barrels... It seems to create too much pressure especially in full choked guns... this info was for modern shotguns... I think jug choked would be ok but before you try it ask Tombob.   

www.tomboboutdoors.com

Ken
Galations 2:20