Author Topic: Ferric Nitrate  (Read 18586 times)

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Ferric Nitrate
« on: June 15, 2010, 09:08:15 PM »
I got some ferric nitrate crystals today. Could someone please tell me what proportions to mix it?  Thanks.

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2010, 09:18:25 PM »
I got some from the Science Co. and mixed it 50-50 with water. Works for me. I think Flintriflesmith did the same. I'm going to experiment more though. That's as far as I got so far, but I like the color I'm getting with this proportion.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2010, 09:20:33 PM »
I mix 1 level tablespoon of crystals to 5 level (what else could they be?)  tablespoons of distilled water......... I think you could use twice as much water but I wanted it concentrated.  It was amazing..It is not acidic so no neutralization required.. doen't hurt hands etc...may stain so gloves are good....  When you heat it after it drys the color and separation of stripes is amazing...then when you varnish it gets darker .... I love it...simple and safe!!

Thats my experience...your mileage may vary........
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:21:13 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline John Archer

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 09:41:51 PM »
The Material Safety Data Sheets on fairly concentrated solutions..50/50 60/40...say to exercise caution. It is acidic and should be neutralized like aquafortis. Use skin and eye protection. I recall Larry Luck saying that when he neutralized with baking soda he noticed foaming or bubbling. It's probably much safer in less concentrated solutions and may not need neutralizing....the stock will probably continue to darken over time if not neutralized.

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Offline heinz

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 10:20:24 PM »
My understanding is the frontier mechanic made this fom urine and iron filings. Mixture then allowed to evaporate. Very useful, cheap, and authentic. Advisable not to cook it on the stove in the kitchen
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 05:00:12 AM by heinz »
kind regards, heinz

California Kid

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 11:04:56 PM »
Dr. Tim, Happy B-day! Did you get your crystals from the same source? Wonder if it would make a difference? Also did you have to use more than one coat with your mixture? Neutralize?

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 11:10:53 PM »
Nate,

I got mine from Science Co.  I believe the bottle I got was about a pint in volume.  It was about 1/4 to 1/3 full.  I just filled the container up with distilled water and it works like a charm.

Not very scientific, but it works.
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Dane

California Kid

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 11:18:09 PM »
Did you neutralize it?

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 11:50:17 PM »
I used the 1:5 ratio of FeO3 to water.  Cooked it with a heat gun (careful not to scorch the thin pieces).  Then neutralized with baking soda and water.

Good stuff and easy to work with.  With small kids in the house, I did not want concentrated nitric acid.

Larry Luck

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 12:06:15 AM »
I have tried on several pieces of wood and the 1:5 ratio worked in one coat nicely..two coats quite darker..... I din't experience any discomfort or anything on my hands..I did wash them immediately each time I have used the Ferric Nitrate ...... I didn't use baking soda. just rinsed well with water like when I use lye.....   I would like to test the mixture somehow to determine its Ph.  It is probably slightly acidic...maybe like spit!! :o  There is a warning on it.....

Yes I bought it from the Science Co. They are great to buy chemicals from. 
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 01:18:00 AM »
I've used it on 4 or 5 guns so far.  Never neutralized.  No problems so far, no discoloration of brass or steel.
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Dane

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 01:30:18 AM »
I don't feel there is any need to neutralize a ferric nitrate solution that has had most of the acid spent.  That is if sufficient iron has been added to the nitric acid and water solution.  Ferric nitrate solution made from crystals should follow the same pattern.  I've had no problems with stocks darkening and little problems with metal corroding.  I can assure you there are many accomplished builders who feel the same as I do.  Flushing the stock with water or a basic water solution is just asking for problems if you are trying to accomplish fine and detailed work.  Sure, you likely can recover from it, but a lot of extra time is required.  It seems this is something that scares relatively new builders.  I say don't worry about it. 

Offline B. Hey

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 01:49:59 AM »
For the uninitiated among us (me  :D) ... I'm assuming ferric nitrate is similar in use to AF. Would someone care to elaborate on its general use? Thanks .. Bill

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 02:21:16 AM »
Ferric nitrate is one of the compounds formed from the reaction of the nitric acid / water solution and iron.  Aqua fortis is just another name for nitric acid.  A ferric nitrate solution is commonly used for a maple stain.  This solution can be made by combining nitric acid, water and iron or by disolving prepared ferric nitrate crystals in water.

Offline B. Hey

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 02:40:25 AM »
Thanks for the info, Jim. I continue to be amazed with the unending flow of information that is so freely shared on this forum. Refreshing .. truly refreshing to be among folks so dedicated and intent on keeping the traditions alive. Take care .. Bill

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 02:40:36 AM »
Bill,

Good question.

A traditional stain for maple is nitric acid saturated with iron (nails, filings, scrap) then diluted.  Because of the availability of ferric nitrate from chemical supply houses, actually making the stuff yourself is not required (though some makers do so).

I have applied it to a stock that has been whiskered to raise the grain and then sanded to final condition.  The ferric nitrate solution is water based so it will raise the grain if that has not been done.

Depending on the depth of color, one or several applications of stain can be used.  Test on a scrap of the stock wood to determine the performance of the stain on the particular wood.  I don't know all the factors that influence the way the wood takes the color, but there is some variability in result.

When the stain dries and before it is heated, the color is a greenish gray and you will fear you have ruined the stock.

I use a variable heat gun to warm the stock and evaporate the water.  This leaves the color in the stock.  Be careful not to heat the wood and char it, which can happen quickly if too much heat is applied to a delicate area.  The vapors are pretty strong and I suspect harmful so have good ventilation.  It is amazing to watch the color change from the sickish green/gray to an auburn reddish brown.

I have neutralized with baking soda, but others do not.

The finish will darken the wood, so you may want to rub back the finish to lighten it a little.

Hope this is what you wanted.

Larry Luck

PS, the stain also works to antique powder horns.

Offline B. Hey

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 02:55:22 AM »
Thanks, Larry. A great tutorial indeed. I had to chuckle because as I was reading, I wondered if it would work on horns ... your PS answered that one! Again, thanks .. Bill

Offline rsells

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2010, 05:18:09 PM »
When I read the information on ferric nitrate, it says it is soluble in water and alcohol.  Has anyone used alcohol rather than water to stain wood and let it air dry before subjecting it to heat?  If so, what ration did you use, does it give the same results as using water, and did it keep the wood from whiskering up like water based stains do?
                                                                           Roger Sells
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 05:23:46 PM by rsells »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2010, 05:30:38 PM »
When I read the information on ferric nitrate, it says it is soluble in water and alcohol.  Has anyone used alcohol rather than water to stain wood and let it air dry before subjecting it to heat?  If so, what ration did you use, does it give the same results as using water, and did it keep the wood from whiskering up like water based stains do?
                                                                           Roger Sells

I have not tried to disolve ferric nitrate crystals in alcohol, but I have tried to use a solution of nitric acid and denatured alcohol with iron added in an attempt to produce a ferric nitrate solution.  It didn't work too well.  If I remember correctly, it didn't produce the richness of the standard solution and created an odd color.  I've wondered about trying this again with alcohol and the ferric nitrate crystals.  This would be a good experiment for someone with some ferric nitrate on hand.

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 09:36:34 PM »
A word of warning.  Don't leave this solution, or the container of crystals open for any period of time in your shop, unless you wish to rust brown every piece of iron in your shop.  The vapors will get to everything.  First time I made up a batch, I used a 10 to 1 ratio.  I left the small jar uncovered over night while I was staining a stock, and a small gun box I was working on.  Spent the next two weeks cleaning rust off of all my tools.

Bill
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California Kid

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 10:23:52 PM »
rsells, I read that as well. Sounds like a good idea. Going to try it. Have to get some alcohol.
On neutralizing, I would think that by the time the crystals were formed the acid would be spent. Don't know for sure, just a guess. Anybody really know?

jwh1947

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 10:48:10 PM »
Imagine what the clan could whoop up, if only they had paid attention in 11th grade chemistry? 

I know that some wish to emulate the old masters, with their basic chemicals and all, but what strikes me as quaint is that some of these same builders will then put a bright touch hole liner on an antiqued gun.  This stands out to me similar to the diamond crunk in Lil' Wayne's front teeth. 


Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 11:37:15 PM »
We just imagine it is a platinum liner we took off of a British Generals gun............ :o :o ;D ;D

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 12:12:08 AM »
OK the left end is Ferric Nitrate in Alcohol. The right end is Ferric Nitrate in water.  in the middle I put one coat of Chambers oil finish over a few ic=nches of both.

Hard to see in the image but the alcohol end is clearer...less muddy... Now I did not have any distilled water so tap water is a problem.... but I do like the alcohol effect ::) ;D This maple is not curly so..... but it seems to provide more definition than the water base. A little bit lighter/clearer than the water side.



« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 12:30:18 AM by DrTimBoone »
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

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Re: Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 12:23:52 AM »
jwh,go back in the bunker! Tim what kind of alcohol did you use?