carving question

[Blacktail]

I've been trying my hand at carving on scraps lately with sorry results. How do you achieve a nice smooth base level when first relieving your design? I keep trying and trying, but can't get past this step.

[LRB]

  Work under the light from a work lamp with a common light bulb. Position the lamp to throw  light on the carving from an angle that causes shadows on the carving. You will then see the high, and low spots. Then chisle, scrape, or, and sand to blend smoothly with the rest of the stock.

[smallpatch]

I assume you are talking about the background.  (the level that you are actually lowering)??.

The answer is that you don't.  You will have gouge marks and uneven areas from lowering that area.  You will need to use scrapers, files, paper to even this all out.
This, while time consuming, is a very small part of the carving process.  

Preparation, design, layout, drawing, cutting in are ALL much more critical parts.

Probably the very most important part to the execution process is..... say it all together now..... SHARP TOOLS.

Acer has a pretty good tutorial in that other part of this board.

Hope that helps

[Acer Saccharum]

I first gouge the surface down, then file. Home made files in the picture above are just small pieces of metal cutting files brazed to shanks, ground to the shape I needed. Some folks take needle files and bend them with heat.

After filing use scrapers, and these you must make yourself. Old saw blades, spring steel, etc make great scrapers.  I have scrapers from 1/32 wide all the way up to an inch. Round nose, beveled, flat, almost every shape imaginable.

The most useful scraper in my box is 1/2 wide, with a very slight radius to the edge. If it bows out  a 1/64, that's plenty. The curve helps prevent the corners from digging in the wood.

Scrapers can be seen in the top center of the photo:

[Dphariss]

Everyone finds their own ways of doing some things.
I use files scrapers, flat chisels and folded fine grit paper. But most of the evening of the background is scrapers and chisels final finish with paper though careful use of 150 grit can erase high spots.
This is a scraper about 3/32" thick made of O-1 flat wide in the middle tapered to the ends one end skewed. Hardened then drawn back to a straw color (light tan for city types) and somewhat darker in the middle part.
I sharpen these with stones or my diamond hone. With a sharp square edge they work as shown here or as a scraper is generally used. I find this very useful as I can push it right up against the raised feature. Here I am deepening a buttstock moulding. It was making such nice curls I took a photo.
I also have various small bent skew chisels etc. I tend to make all the flats/skews as I find something I need and handle them with what ever scraps of stock wood I have or lumberyard dowels.
You should likely buy or rent Wallance Guslers carving video if you have not already.



Dan

[Elnathan]

A variation on the scraper Dan showed is  called a high-angle chisel (I think) - a chisel with a bevel of 70-90 degrees and tempered very hard. It is used for doing such things as smoothing the bed of a wooden plane and is supposed to be an exceptionally fine tool for smoothing surfaces flat - I expect it would work well for carving.

One more thing on my tool wish-list, I guess.

[Blacktail]

Thanks fellas. What is the standard of sharp? I keep my tools shaving sharp and have the bald arms to prove it!

Yes Smallpatch, I mean the background. Should I not worry about evening this out until the end? What is the thickness of metal used on scrapers? Also, what angle of attack to the work do you use? I tried scraping with one of my chisels once and only just dulled the heck out of it.

Is the general concensus that Gussler's is the best carving video out there?

[flintriflesmith]

This has been posted before but you might find some useful tips by viewing the PowerPoint slide show on my web site. It isn't a true tutorial because there isn't a lot of text but the section on my method for leveling the background is pretty self explanatory.

http://flintriflesmith.com/Tools%20&%20Techniques/tools_and_techniques.htm

Go to the link in the last paragraph.

Gary

[LRB]

To each his own, but I use popsickle sticks with sand paper glued on. You can shape them to get into near anywhere.

[Kentucky Jeff]

SHARP scrapers.  Homemade using some old worn out hacksaw blades and a wrapped with some cloth electrical tape.  Just use a bench grinder to grind the profile you want and stone the edges flat and raise a small ridge.   They work the best for me.  I never like using gouges and files as it always seemed like twice the work as scraping and never gave as smooth a finish.  Also, cheap dollar store disposable emory boards (as in nail file) work great for final smoothing in and cleaning up of the raised edges of the carving. 

I also like using a green scrubby to tone down the sharp edges of the carving.  Jim Klein taught me that trick!

[rick landes]

Acer
Is that a steel headed mallet in the top left of the second photo?

I tend to push my carving tools and have not used a mallet...

I am correct in believing you have good success with this (unless I am really missing my evaluation of your skill...you would not have it...)

Thank you !

[Acer Saccharum]

Rick, you gotta ask Jim Filipski what he thinks about the mallet for driving the parting tool.

I find I CANNOT control the tool by pushing. the tool slips out of the wood, and it goes skittering across the stock, leaving a splintery trail of torn wood and tears. Tears, as in I am cryin my eyes out mad.

For outlining relief carving and fine line work, I use the mallet. For fine work, I use a small wooden mallet. For heavy work, like gouging stock wood off, use the iron mallet. Got that from woodcraft.

For shaping and sculpting the relief carving, I push by hand, with palm tools.

Tom

[George F.]

Tom have you tried cutting a path with a knife where you what to use the parting tool.   ...Geo.

[jerrywh]

I do all of the above BUT--- if I had to pick the most important part I would say it was the light. That light must be so that it cast a shadow of any variation in the height of the back ground.  Keep it at a low angle and at times it helps much to turn out all the other lights in the shop. You can also move the lamp around the carrving from different sides. If you can't see it you can't fix it.

[Blacktail]

Thanks for the help guys. One thing's for sure, I'd better not touch a gunstock with the intent of carving it for a long time! I'll look again at the archieved stuff, make some scrapers, and keep trying. I think my biggest problem is a total inability to draw this stuff. I spend more time trying to draw a design to practice on than anything. Thanks also for the input on the light. I kept thinking more is better, but Jerry and LRB's comments make alot of sense.

[jerrywh]

You can get a lot of good ideas by looking at rococo furniture carvings. Look up English rococo on the net.

[Acer Saccharum]

Blacktail, for carving and engraving, one of your most important skills to develop is drawing. This you must learn if you want to create your own designs. Drawing develops you hand and your eye at the same time.

If you do not draw, you must then copy the work of others. This, too, will train your hand an eye. To learn the style of Rembrandt, you must copy him. Once you 'get it' go out on your own.

There is no easy way out, it's just plain work, and many hours of it. I have to say those hours are some of the best times I've had. So....is it work....or play?



George F., I have the same allergic reaction to outlining with a knife as I do to 'pushing' with the parting tool. I wouldn't have the control I want.

Tom

[Jim Filipski]

Hi Guys,
   I would like to chime in although I know this thread is near it's end: Just got the time to read the forums.
Just want to say what ever you need to do to remove backgrounds should be what ever you are comfortable with. Keep in mind sharp cuts with a chisel or knives will
not raise grain vs. sanding or filing. Scraping is great but make sue you take it to "finished scraping" with a micro turned edge on your scrapers vs an aggressive edge!
I'm with Jerry: I do all of the above based on the situation.
   Let me say this about Acers method of driven vee tools!..... After 25 years of gun building I came to the ALR forums to try to learn something "new" WELL
Acer's driven vee tool method is the best thing I have learned in 25 years ( but hey he is afraid of the knife!) I still fix my cuts with a # 11 exacto blade ( God I can't help myself!)
However I can outline an entire piece with his method in 1/2 the time plus if I make a mistake in judgement ( yeah not likely!) I can recut the area with no tell tale signs!
@!*% talk about teaching an old Dog new tricks!!!!
I do want to share with you all some of my background removal knives which I learned to make from Keith Casteel back in the late 80"s They slice the background around raise carving very well and try to raise the grain as you can it will not pop using these tools. I can't even begin to tell you what I used to make these but it was tool or blade steel; been my best tools for close up background removal for most of my building career!
Jim

These are the knives I use to "slice the background right up to the carving relief"

[rick landes]

Thanks for the info Acer and JWFilipski. I will HAVE to try the driving method for my future carving. I have only one working finger (my pinky) on my left hand so I am a bit intimidated by the holding of the chisel, gouge or v tool...they tend to not stay at the angle I try to hold them at...but the tapping of a mallet may very well help the overall flow of the work...I am believing it is much like the tapping for engraving...a small bit at a time.

Thank you!

[Dphariss]

Thanks fellas. What is the standard of sharp? I keep my tools shaving sharp and have the bald arms to prove it!

Yes Smallpatch, I mean the background. Should I not worry about evening this out until the end? What is the thickness of metal used on scrapers? Also, what angle of attack to the work do you use? I tried scraping with one of my chisels once and only just dulled the heck out of it.

Is the general concensus that Gussler's is the best carving video out there?

Scraping should not dull a properly hardened chisel any faster than use as a cutter. Scrapers meant to have a rolled edge formed with a burnisher are softer and they stand up well to wood. I have several shop made flats ranging from O-1 too steel to a reshaped and re-tempered needle file and they don't seem to mind cutting or scraping. I temper the O-1 pretty hard and it takes a very smooth edge and holds it very well. It works so well I would not buy a flat. This allows me the make exactly what I think I want.
As someone else pointed out people use what works best for them. I use what ever I think will work best at the time. Or I make something I hope will work and then go from there.
Just a difference in the wood being carved can change the tool/process used.
Dan