Author Topic: Your thiughts on Shimmels  (Read 35949 times)

Offline Collector

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Re: Your thoughts on Shimmels...
« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2010, 08:27:46 PM »
Interesting discussion.  When I was a young'n, the church we attended, in New Monmouth, NJ had, amongst it's membership, families that predated the American Revolution.  Families that had ancestors that were fairly substantial landowners and farmers, in that period.   They were still substantial landowners and farming in the early 1950's.  One of the sons, knowing of our interest in hunting, firearms and 'old guns, invited my father, one Sunday after church, to bring us over to see their 'old guns.'   From a hidden compartment, built into a paneled wall and tucked behind a high-back arm chair, he brought out, one at a time, two (2) Charlesville - US - marked muskets, brought home by two brothers that had fought with Washington, a fine early Lancaster (daisy patchbox and all) and then a longrifle, he called a 'plain gun' that was the familys' "earliest" piece, as he was pulling it out.  He only showed us only one side (lock side,) of this piece, but it had an absolutely stunning piece of tight curly maple, from butt to nose, covered in a beautiful reddish varnish finish, a long swamped barrel with sights, a fairly large flat Germanic/'Lancaster' style lock (not a banana shape, that I can remember) a straight combed stock... with a single 'round' hole in the buttstock.  I can't tell you about the particulars of buttplate (if any,) ramrod pipes, nosecap (if any,) sights or rifling, but I can tell you that my brother and I stood there with our mouths open.  I mean, here was a longrifle that challenged all of 'our' preconceived notions of what a longrifle was, from information garnered from collectors books that we could get our hands on and longrifles in museums.  It was a "WOW" moment and I can still see it in my minds eye.  The metal, by-the-way, was still fairly bright.  That was the only time that piece came out and I never saw it again.  I did inquire after it, last year, through my father and was told that it still remains with a family member (brother,) who now lives in VA.    

I submit, that there was nothing about this piece, that would make one think that it had ever hung in a barn, was a parts gun or wasn't finished by a professional hand.   And here, a linear ancestor, referred to it only as a 'plain' gun.  I'm also quite sure that a hole drilled in the buttstock, for patch lube... isn't confined to just 'southern' pieces.  I believe, that a professional gunsmith, like a Newcomer, a Beck and others, were capable of producing whatever their customers wanted, perhaps even incorporating a feature from another part of the Colonies,  into the prevailing regional 'school,' if that's what they wanted.  Given that the colonists followed and kept up with clothing fashions in Europe, I don't think our ancestors where quite as isolated, from each other, here in the American Colonies, as early historians portrayed.

Subject to the known facts and absent anything which might prove otherwise, the term 'plain rifle' or 'plain gun' (another topic on the board) may have, in fact, encompassed everthing from the so-called 'Schimmel/barn gun' to a piece with some incised decoration behind the cheekpiece (maybe) and a hole in the buttstock for patch lube.  The answer, if any, more aptly lies, between pure conjecture and pure semantics... of our own invention

Just throwing my stone in the pond, here.      
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 10:27:31 PM by G.Hansen »

dannybb55

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2010, 09:12:50 PM »
Allemangel would mean "all deficiencies"..."all is lacking", that sort of thing.  I was fairly sure, but yes, I did look it up.   ;D  ("to want" as in "to lack", rather than "want" as in "desire")

I also greatly dislike the term "Schimmel" (and the use of the word "Jaeger" to mean "rifle").  I prefer "barn gun".  It is descriptive, simple, and uncontrived.    ;)
Doesn't Jager mean hunter or gamekeeper? The Jager would use a gewher, which is German for rifle.
                             Danny

Offline smshea

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2010, 04:01:14 AM »
The Allemangel sub school is just the name chosen by the folks that have done most of the research on guns from this area...whatever it translates into....that's how they refer to it for study purposes. They put the time and research in...I for one will let them call it what they want and be grateful for the research done.

 I refer to Plain eastern Pa built guns as "Schimmels" for the same reason. Chuck and Tom put the time and research in and that's what they want to call them...so be it. What they really are is just PLAIN GUNS. Plain versions of guns made in the region they come from. If you hold Chuck's Boyers over a fully dressed Boyer the architecture is the same. If you hold the Angstadt in the library over a fully dresses A.Angstadt of the same period....it's the same. The same is true with many many others. Even when you cant Id the maker they are just plain versions of guns from the area ,no  different than a carved/inlayed gun that cant be Identified from the same area. There are buckets of plain guns from eastern Pa. that have the addition of a butt plate... but otherwise plain. They did not all (If Any)  hang in a barn.
Ive heard 20 different translations for "Schimmel" for our purposes it should translate "Plain Gun".  Just not sure why we look at them as anything other than base models of the more fancy versions that get more press...that's all they are and this seems to have been very common anywhere east of Reading.       
 

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2010, 04:03:50 AM »
Maybe they made them for the folks who dressed plain......quakers, Amish, Mennonites..etc.........
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Offline smshea

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2010, 05:40:36 AM »
I agree this is a possibility and a good one, but we can discuss the "WHY" all day. Its all speculation. In fact the "WHY"can be applied to any rifle...and almost never answered. In the areas that they are common, they are among the best examples of raw architecture, even the ones that are left oversized are great studies of the regional architecture.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2010, 06:00:53 AM »
Allemangel would mean "all deficiencies"..."all is lacking", that sort of thing.  I was fairly sure, but yes, I did look it up.   ;D  ("to want" as in "to lack", rather than "want" as in "desire")

I also greatly dislike the term "Schimmel" (and the use of the word "Jaeger" to mean "rifle").  I prefer "barn gun".  It is descriptive, simple, and uncontrived.    ;)
Doesn't Jager mean hunter or gamekeeper? The Jager would use a gewher, which is German for rifle.
                             Danny

"Gewehr" = "gun".  In general, it would refer to smoothbore guns that were not bird guns (unlike in later periods, where "Gewehr" would be used for military rifles.  I believe that at one point in the past the word referred to an arm or weapon of any kind, but I'm not sure about that.)
"Flinte" (or some other similar word, like Flünde) was a smoothbore bird gun.
"Büchse" = "rifle".....usually.  A more ancient word that grew to refer only to rifles, though in the 18th century you still would have Hachenbüchsen, (hook guns/wall guns) which were generally not rifled.

"Jaeger/Jäger" means "hunter", and is the man with the gun, not the gun he carries.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline TPH

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2010, 05:08:07 PM »

"Gewehr" = "gun".  In general, it would refer to smoothbore guns that were not bird guns (unlike in later periods, where "Gewehr" would be used for military rifles.  I believe that at one point in the past the word referred to an arm or weapon of any kind, but I'm not sure about that.)


Concerning the phrase - "at one point in the past the word referred to an arm or weapon of any kind, but I'm not sure about that" - Chris, you are correct. The German term for bayonet is "seitengewehr" or "side arm". The use of "gewehr" certainly goes back to at least edged weapons.
T.P. Hern

dannybb55

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2010, 12:26:51 AM »
If gun tech was moving fast anywhere, then it was flying in the Holy Roman Empire and later the Reich. With as many regional dialects as central Europe had, it is a wonder that the laguages kept up at all.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2010, 03:53:11 AM »
If the where and when of Amish settlement is a factor for anyone making surmises about Plain Guns possibly arising in PA around Amish settlements, this timeline may be a good, brief read. 1737 is important, but is also important to note that a second and larger wave of immigration began about 1830.

http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/AmishHistoryTimeline.html

It'll dispell some of the notions that all Amish are identical in their beliefs regarding the use of "technologies," as well as the a-military pacifism believed to be universal. Maybe today, but not histroically.

Just a digression...
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Your thiughts on Shimmels
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2010, 05:14:13 PM »
In the 18th century, the Amish were a very small sect.  They broke away from the Swiss Brethren/Mennonites because they considered them too lax.  At the time, the Amish were extremely severe and ascetic.  Now, the Mennonites in my area are often called "Amish Mennonites"... ::)

In the 18th century, the Swiss Brethren/Mennonites greatly outnumbered the Amish in PA.  While it is well known that they shunned ostentatiousness in clothing (which was not an uncommon sentiment among PA Germans in general, with the Pietist movement in full force at the time), they were not afraid of decoration.  Much "Fraktur" art and painted furniture is attributed to Mennonites.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."