Author Topic: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond  (Read 18968 times)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« on: June 20, 2010, 03:16:52 PM »
The discussion about Shimmels got me thinking.  I love the original guns and there are many I would like to build with their inspiration.

There is also the notion of the contemporary flintlock which might have new artistic characteristics similar to the way Sam Maloof  made rocking chairs... its still a rocker but clearly contemporary.....and many have been inspired to build based on his inspiration ...... as some have been inspired by House guns and a Wooodbury school has evolved....The Appalachian guns are another step in the progression.... what will the next evolution be that maintains and extends the traditional in flintlock guns??


What are your thoughts and what examples can we look at that might be indicative of this artistic need and of interest to collectors of contemporary guns??   ( For those who love the originals and are building/buying for reenactment, this is not to disparage casue I think that is a wonderful art form as well.....but sometimes I get the urge to try something that might be beautiful but isn't totally HC......)

How can we do this and build on the past while adding our own ideas?
Your thoughts?? Your pictures??

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northmn

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 03:48:33 PM »
For a flintlock, the primary rules should be that it is a gun that COULD have been built.  If one is looking at Rev times then it should follow basics of that time.  Otherwise I think that building within these parameters is great.  While I do not know what is acceptable for reinactors, to slavishly build a recreation and then antique it so it looks 200 years old is less acceptable than one establishing his style. Guns used in the 1770's did not look 200 years old.  N Beyer did not recreate J.P. Becks, he built N. Beyers.  While the influence is there, he did built his own guns.  We should do that today.

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 04:15:58 PM »
Interesting..... When I started building in 1980 Jeagers were hot, especially with Bivens and Sanchez influence. Also, Iron mounted Tenn. rifles were hot right at or just after that time, probably had something to do with Hershels presence. In those days I was highly influenced by Hill Pierce's work as well as the Woodbury school as Hershal developed the wide butted iron mounted rifle he is  so famous for now. I think I have pretty well evolved beyond that now.
 Popular styles are pretty well all over the map these days. According to what I see presented on this board and the Blog, precise and crisp workmanship seems to be the direction gunbuilding is going instead of a particular school or type of gun.  An incredible surge in technique and execution is occurring.
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While I do not know what is acceptable for reinactors, to slavishly build a recreation and then antique it so it looks 200 years old is less acceptable than one establishing his style. Guns used in the 1770's did not look 200 years old.
This is a current phenomenon, one that I participate in, influenced mainly by EK's work, he's very good at it.  Aging is an art unto it's self, it's not for sissys or the faint of heart. I'm not going to debate whether aging is right or wrong, I'm just going to do it because it pleases me. Part of why I like old guns so much is because they are old and carry their history visibly with them. That's why I antique, to give the gun a possible past and there for it brings them to life.
 Where is all this going in the future? Beats me, but I do know what direction I'm heading in! ;D

As an addendum, I think most of us who build put a tremendous part of ourselves into a gun, just like the old timers did. I can pick out a "traditionally built" gun and many times identify the maker just by his style  and technique that automatically is built into everything he makes.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 04:32:27 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 05:23:22 PM »
This sort of subject has been hashed around quite a bit before, but here are my thoughts.  I think anything from a documentary copy of an existing rifle to a newly developed contemporary styled rifles have their place.  For me, the important thing is that they are done well.  Design is more important than execution, but there is a minimum level execution that must me met.  Developing a new style is not an easy task.  Most who try it will likely not be too succesful.  A sound understanding of traditional work must be in place first.  The key in my opinion is that it be designed and created in an asthetically pleasing manner.  The sort of feeling you get when you pick up a great rifle and just don't want to put it down is the goal.  Aging, patination etc. can certainly add to this appeal, however it shouldn't be relied upon too much.  In my opinion, the current strong interest in aging is sometimes at the expense of design and execution.  There's really no limit to what can be created.  for me, this is one of the most exciting parts of this gunbuilding stuff.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 05:25:53 PM by Jim Kibler »

jwh1947

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 05:26:43 PM »
Northern, praise be upon you for your simple insight!  "Guns used in the 1770's did not look 200 years old."  Every collector/builder should be made to write this on the chalkboard 200 times.  Right next to, "Sometimes, I, too, might not be seeing what I think I'm seeing."  

Incidentally, yesterday I saw a green gun.  Green as a leaf of oozing poison ivy.  Un-neutralized aqua fortis and a little sunlight, most likely.  Maybe some originals started out similarly, or even more quaint.

Another point to ponder.  If you use ferric nitrate or any compound where you rot iron into another substance and then apply it lavishly to a gunstock, would that not engender additional oxidation (ie. rust) to any steel part that comes in contact with it?
I am neither a metallurgist nor a chemical engineer, so explain, please.


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 06:34:18 PM »
Quote
Incidentally, yesterday I saw a green gun.  Green as a leaf of oozing poison ivy.  Un-neutralized aqua fortis and a little sunlight, most likely.  Maybe some originals started out similarly, or even more quaint.
That was chromic acid....evil stuff.
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Northern, praise be upon you for your simple insight!  "Guns used in the 1770's did not look 200 years old."  Every collector/builder should be made to write this on the chalkboard 200 times.
Let's not forget that not all people buy guns for the same reason and many/most don't even reenact . I build for many people that shoot casually or do some hunting and the rest of the time the gun is predominately displayed in the home over the fire place as an "antique". These folks like to have a usable muzzleloading gun that looks like an antique for an affordable price. The "real'" antiques are to costly for most folks to buy for display, not to mention the fact of using one  to shoot with.
 I don't do any 18th century reenacting anymore so why should I have to have a gun that looks like it is brand new?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 06:40:33 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 06:35:50 PM »
The green was probably Chromium Trioxide.

When I was but a mere lad, I went to see all the guns my dad's boss had.  One was a full stock, small caliber percussion rifle with a long brass tube scope mounted on it.  The stock was as green as a pea.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 09:38:45 PM »
Quote
If you use ferric nitrate or any compound where you rot iron into another substance and then apply it lavishly to a gunstock, would that not engender additional oxidation (ie. rust) to any steel part that comes in contact with it?
not when it's done right - and besides FN aka Aqua Fortis was one of if not the most popular "stains" for maple during the period and IMO still works better than ANY dye and over the last 50 years working wood with it I've used about everything else......some come close, but none give the chatoyance to the wood that AF/FN does.

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Un-neutralized aqua fortis and a little sunlight, most likely.
As noted probably CT and not FN which if not neutralized properly and left in the sun will turn dark, approaching black, not green, dependent on time and conditions. In fact FN and sunlight is how I learned to ebonize wood.......

While I haven't built a gun in years (have one in the works though, but funding is currently slow) I build perod knives, tomahawks, etc. and use most of the same techniques. As to aging - I've always seemed to have a knack for it and like Mike Brooks I just plain like and so do my customers. As to whether one should or should not do it - that's all opinion and not all look 200 years old anyway - at least no when done right..........

something to ponder - this is based on the thoughts of Alex Kozlov, a maker of period beadwork:
REPLICAS: The copying with exact reproduction of all features of an original, including dimensions, size and color of fittings, number of stitches, and all other materials.

MADE AFTER: Closely copying an original with fair selection of its materials or close substitutes and layout of the design pattern.

IN THE STYLE: When a piece is made "in Style", it bears all features that belong to this particular cultural region, ethnicity, or time period, but is not an exacting copy.

THE ORIGINAL: Any piece created entirely from the imagination of the craftsman, whether two hundred years ago or yesterday and having no exact analog - a complete original while still using appropriate materials, methods, etc. (i.e. the "new school" guns being produced today by such as the House Brothers, Ian Pratt, etc..) The quality of craftsmanship is the main measure of the piece.

Problems with "in Style" or "Original" pieces can arise if/when they are mis-labeled as Replicas, Reproductions, or Copies

For myself I spent beau coup years learning by copying originals (my apprenticeship) and it's one of the best ways I know how to get the "feel", but then I ran into a wall and got burned out - mostly bored to tears making the same exact items over and over again. After a while I returned to building, but it is "MY" stuff rather than copies (albeit well footed in the past) and my work is now once again enjoyable. On the other hand, taking time off from building copies has given me a new fresh view of doing such work and there's some originals I've been looking at to do.

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A sound understanding of traditional work must be in place first.  The key in my opinion is that it be designed and created in an asthetically pleasing manner.  The sort of feeling you get when you pick up a great rifle and just don't want to put it down is the goal.....  There's really no limit to what can be created.  for me, this is one of the most exciting parts of this gunbuilding stuff.
Couldn't agree more......

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Aging, patination etc. can certainly add to this appeal, however it shouldn't be relied upon too much.  In my opinion, the current strong interest in aging is sometimes at the expense of design and execution.
Jim - I agree and IMO this is one of the "problems" when something becomes popular - those with out the proper background pick up on the popular and do only the one part, in this case aging, with only a nod of consideration for the rest. IMO to do anything "right" one must start with the basics and go from there.........

IMO bottomline - do what YOU enjoy doing, find your muse (something that can and often will change) and go for it............



« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:41:48 PM by ChuckBurrows »
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 03:11:52 AM »
I am not in the same leaque with others commenting, but I do agree that the gun should look as if it could have belonged to the 18th Century but without artificial aging.  This is just my personal taste.  Things which I distinctly dislike are finishes which are clearly not consistent with how the gun could have looked in the 18th century.  Wood polished to 1600 grit and urethane finish as is now common on an Italian shotgun and brass patch boxes with mirror finishes just scream out to me that this is wrong.   

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 03:28:10 AM »
I like to build a gun that could have been built to a certain school and time period. Current build is a Valley of Virginia Golden Age gun, primarily because there are no kits to build this style. There is nothing wrong with a good kit, but they are approaching the mass produced production gun. I also do not care for the copy of an existing gun because the builder has really not created anything, merely copied an existing object, and most rifles in this category that I have seen, while excellent in craftsmanship, still fall somewhat short. The architecture is a bit off, or the engraving is not quite right, or some other small detail which would not affect anything in an original, keeps the copy from be an exact replica of the intended gun.

Now, to those re-enactors carrying an "aged" gun. Why would a guy in 1780 be carrying a 200 year old gun ? A gun with a bit of honest wear I could see, but a re-enactor carrying and "aged" gun is just as incorrect as if carrying a Winchester.

northmn

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 04:04:06 AM »
I can understand Mikes point about aging for a wall hanger and one used for personal use.  If someone likes it its their money, time and gun, but they have their place.  Finish is a big difference between modern and originals.  Many fo the originals were finished with a reddish varnish (Dan Depharsis has posted a picture of an original Hawken with such a finish)  An original Beck I have copied pictures from has carving that is crude in execution compared to some of the modern recreations.  Our technology is a little better for that sort of thing and maybe the people doing it are compensated better for it or have the time.  Is it wrong ???  They are very attractive pieces taht appeal to the modern customer.  It has been said that many originals would not do so well at Dixon's judging.  We seem to have set higher standards than they had.  Some collectors have pointed out that barrel channels were rounded instead of a mirror octagon like we do today. etc.  Again technology. 
Modern guns and styles deserve their own place and appreciation.  Some of our modern guns are also more shootable and usable.  Many of the originals had very, very heavy barrels and were awkward to hold up.  We build today for our uses just as they did for their uses back then.

DP 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 04:39:31 AM »
Quote
Now, to those re-enactors carrying an "aged" gun. Why would a guy in 1780 be carrying a 200 year old gun ? A gun with a bit of honest wear I could see, but a re-enactor carrying and "aged" gun is just as incorrect as if carrying a Winchester.
Why always "200 years"? Usefull life expectancy of a Carolina gun carried by an NA was two years. Kinda shoots the "200 year old" formula to pieces. ;)
 I'm guessing that many/most of our surviving Rev War era guns and rifles probably weren't used much, and certainly not anywhere near the frontier where guns wore out rather quickly.
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Offline smshea

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 05:21:35 AM »
Quote
Now, to those re-enactors carrying an "aged" gun. Why would a guy in 1780 be carrying a 200 year old gun ? A gun with a bit of honest wear I could see, but a re-enactor carrying and "aged" gun is just as incorrect as if carrying a Winchester.
Why always "200 years"? Usefull life expectancy of a Carolina gun carried by an NA was two years. Kinda shoots the "200 year old" formula to pieces. ;)
 I'm guessing that many/most of our surviving Rev War era guns and rifles probably weren't used much, and certainly not anywhere near the frontier where guns wore out rather quickly.

AMEN!!!!

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 05:35:55 AM »
This is creative work; there are no 'rules'.  I like an aged look, a well used look. I like how old guns look and feel.

I also understand the point of view that when a gun was made back in the day, it looked NEW.  A purposely aged gun would not have even been conceived of 200 yrs ago. There was no market for such treatments.

However, this is NOT back in the day. This is about personal preference.

There is a market for 'aged' guns. There is a market for 'new' guns. So make what you like.

Jim Kibler, you have made several statements that are on the money.  'Design is more important than execution' and 'A sound understanding of traditional work must be in place first' and, lastly 'designed and created in an asthetically pleasing manner' are key to a great rifle.

I'm still trying.....again and again to make that great rifle. It is like a search for the Holy Grail, where one becomes completely consumed by the search.

Tom
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Offline smshea

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 05:41:11 AM »
This is creative work; there are no 'rules'.  I like an aged look, a well used look. I like how old guns look and feel.

I also understand the point of view that when a gun was made back in the day, it looked NEW.  A purposely aged gun would not have even been conceived of 200 yrs ago. There was no market for such treatments.

However, this is NOT back in the day. This is about personal preference.

There is a market for 'aged' guns. There is a market for 'new' guns. So make what you like.

Jim Kibler, you have made several statements that are on the money.  'Design is more important than execution' and 'A sound understanding of traditional work must be in place first' and, lastly 'designed and created in an asthetically pleasing manner' are key to a great rifle.

I'm still trying.....again and again to make that great rifle. It is like a search for the Holy Grail, where one becomes completely consumed by the search.

Tom
AMEN AGAIN!!!!

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2010, 06:25:33 AM »
So, take away the wood rot and maybe some of the cracks from drying, a 202 year old gun looked close to the same today as it did 200 years ago.

Maybe there was more than one gun in the house, one broke. Another one got used and the broke one never got repaired, replaced or recycled. The one that got used might have been absconded upon the owners death by a native. It didn't survive and the broke one is now in one of Shumway's books.

The guns I build are not perfect, far from it. Most come from time spent studying pictures. Not many 200 + year old guns in KS. I know the drop, pull and cast I like and these are set first. The rest comes from what I like in the pictures. May not be right but, it's all I got to go on.

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 ( For those who love the originals and are building/buying for reenactment, this is not to disparage casue I think that is a wonderful art form as well.....but sometimes I get the urge to try something that might be beautiful but isn't totally HC......)

How can we do this and build on the past while adding our own ideas?
Your thoughts?? Your pictures??





I am a 18 c. reenactor, I go to juried events, I hunt, that's how I reenact for myself. This is the last gun I finished, 28 g. 44 5/8"smooth rifle. I know some people don't like them. I built it for me not them.

It's hard to find pre rev, F&I guns that I like enough to copy, that's why I build the way I do. If I were to copy an old gun I think it would be slimmed down to a more contemporary look. So it wouldn't be a copy anyway.

Bruce

northmn

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 03:22:16 PM »
I go back to to the issue of utility.  Many surviving guns seem to have very heavy barrels.  A very nice straight barreled rifle for general shooting is a 13/16 45.  Did many exist in that configuration even in later years when straight barrels were more common ???  We have A,B,C weights in swamped barrels.  Are some of these scaled down??  A 50 may have been most commonly a C weight.  Hawkens were generally tapered with 1 1/8 inch at the breech or more.  In his book on trade rifles Hansen gives specs of rifles used out West that had barrels of over an inch, 40+ inches long and in 45-50 cal.  We also see some strange stock configurations in surviving originals.   
Even when you look beyond the artistry, we build a more practical rifle for our use today.  I would rather not build or handle a reproduction of a Bedford or Tennessee with a 44 inch 36 cal 1 inch barrel.  A lot of Befords have been made with the 13/16 barrel.  I seriously doubt that the poor boy I built with the straight 3/4 inch barrel would have existed back then, but I prefer to carry it.  Our long barreled small bore rifles seemed to be an American tradition as European rifles like the Jaeger and English rifles were lighter and short barreled in comparison.
We build today's rifles for today's use and there is nothing wrong with it.

DP

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 05:12:43 PM »
So who are the builders leading the way in contemporary design?.. certainly House Bros. Who else? Do you have examples of your own that reflect your creative innovation, or pictures of others that you admire??  Allan Sandy does beautiful work and some I would  say include his artistic license;  I like the looks of this fowling piece........I can find no historical rationale for the beavertail cheekpiece, but it is beautiful sculpture to my eye and adds to the appeal of the gun. Same with the incised scrolls:
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 05:26:33 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2010, 05:35:21 PM »
Quote
I like the looks of this fowling piece........I can find no historical rationale for the beavertail cheekpiece,
There is a Germanic  fowler in Shumway's book with a cheek piece like that, very common on Euro stuff. That's the best piece of Sandy's work I have seen, very cool. Gotta bigger/more pictures of it?
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2010, 05:39:07 PM »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2010, 05:41:30 PM »
Quote
So who are the builders leading the way in contemporary design?
HHMMMM.... Tough question. I think all of us except those that do bench copies are incorporating some contemporary detail in our work. Sort of the "If I were working in this area I might incorporate these features on a gun" sort of thing.
 I actually am pretty turned off by most anything contemporary so I probably have missed anyone that has been seriously working in that venue.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 05:44:51 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2010, 05:43:13 PM »
Allan Sandy's site:

http://www.scarletscarab.com/allansandy.htm#D
Dam! Still too small to see. Looks like he may have made a small series of these.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2010, 05:45:34 PM »
Yeah I held a couple at the CLA two years ago...nice.  During 2008 there was a big picture of one on/in the back cover of MB or Muzzleloader...part of an add for NMLRA or CLA I cant remember but it caught my eye......
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »
Quote
Now, to those re-enactors carrying an "aged" gun. Why would a guy in 1780 be carrying a 200 year old gun ? A gun with a bit of honest wear I could see, but a re-enactor carrying and "aged" gun is just as incorrect as if carrying a Winchester.
Why always "200 years"? Usefull life expectancy of a Carolina gun carried by an NA was two years. Kinda shoots the "200 year old" formula to pieces. ;)
 I'm guessing that many/most of our surviving Rev War era guns and rifles probably weren't used much, and certainly not anywhere near the frontier where guns wore out rather quickly.

I dunno most of the flint longrifles were converted to percussion and the broken  ones rebuilt, so figure a rifle was made in the 1770s as some certainly appear to have been if not before, then convert to percussion in 1830-40 then used enough to chlorate pit the exterior and the life span gets a little longer. Rifles cost too much to be throwaways like trade guns so basing the life of a longrifle on that of the tradegun is not really valid.  In fact the traders probably PREFERRED them the go south in 2 years so they could sell another one. So comparing trade gun durability is not the same as something made by a maker who was trying to maintain a reputation.
So some Kentuckys could have been in service as flintlocks for 50-60 years then used a percussions into the 1860s-80s.
The frontier is hard on guns to be sure. But how they survived will depend on the owner, some people are pretty hard on firearms treating them carelessly, some are far more careful some much more. I don't think there is anyway to make statements on how long a rifle lasted. There are too may variables. They were, as stated in Bailey often the most valuable item people owned, they did not abuse them.  It was a protector not a prop so they did not abuse them, but then there have always been fools who died due to not taking the proper care in various ways, firearms being one of these.
Based on the abuse Dad's 742 Remington has endured over the years, wet, dry, snow, -60f etc, lots of time in the pickup, unless broken the long rifle would survive 20-30 years of use with reasonable care and maybe a few freshings  and maybe some lock work.
Joe Meek's rifle, at least one of them, survives, the Hawken being carried by the man with John Bozeman when he was killed still survives with a patched wrist. But its very likely the internals of these later locks were steel rather than iron.
We have some written data to look at.
Lewis & Clark had heavily used rifles by the time they reached the mouth of the Columbia. Two with locks so worn that they were replaced at Ft. Clatsop. These rifles were in daily use for about 2 years. These were the only ones documented so I makes me wonder if they had been used a lot more, were poorly hardened or had some other metallurgical problem, which was common at the time, had corrosion problems from being used/loaded constantly in a damp atmosphere or if this was just typical. I would wonder if these two rifles were fired everyday, Droulliards may very have been fired more than this on average nut ?, some of the others had to be heavily used as well. Locks wearing out was likely a common problem since Lewis took along replacement parts and locks. 2 of the rifles also burst but were returned to service after shortening. No stocks were reported being broken that I recall.
So even though in pretty rough service the 15 rifles Lewis picked up at Harpers Ferry stood up pretty well even though they were reported to have been heavily rusted on the trip down the Ohio. 2 needed lock replacements and 2 burst their barrels far enough from the breech to be shortened and returned to service. The shorter one at least was traded to a native. Burst barrels were also a problem with trade guns.

Dan
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Originals, Woodbury, Shimmels and beyond
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2010, 06:15:19 PM »
Dan, And that has what to do with contemporary design of flintlocks?????
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