First Flintlock?

[T.O.]

Hello,
I just brought home a new 45 Southern Poor boy made by Brian Turner at TVM.  It has a Durs Egg lock and a 42 inch Green Mtn with 1/60.  ( it took about 3 weeks to complete gun, My dad ordered one the same day from another builder, he will get his next spring)  I have no idea where to start.  I think I need 3/4 in flint.  I have a can of 2F goex black.  I dont know if I need 3F or 4F for the pan.   I need to know what works for ball size, patch, lube, and load.  any help will be appreciated.
Thanks
T.O. 

[SCLoyalist]

Just as a wild guess, because every gun is different, I'd say get some .440 and .445 RB, a bag of .015 precut dry patches, use spit lube.   I expect your gun will shoot better with 3F powder than it will with 2F.  A lot of people prime with 3F instead of 4F.  Conventional wisdom says between 1 and 1.5 grains of powder per caliber is probably going to give you best results - i.e. somewhere between 45 and 70 grains.  An L&R Durs Egg lock takes a 3/4" flint, according to the L&R website.

Once you fire a couple of shots at 25 yards to be confident you'll be able to find your bullet holes, work off a rest and shoot at 50 yds.

Start with 45 grains of powder and the 440 RB.  Shoot 5 shots off a rest and mark the holes and measure the group size.   Then repeat that only with 50 gr of powder.     Then 55 grains and 60 grains.   Make a note of which gave you the smallest group size.    

Now, do the same thing all over again, only 445RB and 40, 45, 50..etc grains.   See which gave you the smallest group size.    Once you have a ball diameter and powder charge that gives a good group, you can then start experimenting with patch material and thickness and other lubes to see if you can shrink the group size.

You might do a forum Search on "Working up a Load" or invest in Dutch Schoulz's  information packet.  You need to take it slow and be methodical as you adjust the variables of ball diameter, charge, patch material/thickness, and lube.

And, I suggest that you not make any adjustments to sight height until you think you're close to a final load.  Once you file a sight down, you can't put it back.   Windage adjustments can be undone, but elevation adjustments tend to be forever.

Good luck, and welcome to the Order of Rocklockers.

SCL

[T.O.]

Thanks SCL

[horseman]

T. O.,  S. C. gave you some VERY good advice.  I have the same barrel on my rifle that was built for me.  I REALLY like it.  I ended up using a .440 ball with a .010 patch lubed with Wonder Lube.  No special reason, I just ordered it.  I use 30 grains of Goex 3F (prime with it as well).  At 50 yards no problems.  The flint I use is 3/4" wide and 7/8" long.  I tried .445 balls and patches of various thickness and  this is the combo that works for my barrel.  Good Luck.

[Daryl]

T.O.- I have the same barrel on my longrifle.  I spend a lot of time finding out what the gun wants and through comprehensive testing, end up with a rifle that prints 5 into 1/2" at 50 yards, or the work isn't done.

The GM .45 shoots identically to my especially made MATCH barrel in .40 cal - ie: 1/2" off the bags at 50 yards. 25 yards will only tell you the gun is going off and give you a range to zero at, which will also give you a 50yard zero.

As to balls and patches, I wouldn't even try .440's. I did and cut my groups by 25% by going to a .445" ball.  I use 10oz denim for patching - which will measure between .018" and .0225" depending on how you measure it and with what tool.

As I like to have an accurate load with both 3F and 2F, I test both. My GM barrel gives up 1/2" gorups at 50 yards using the following 3F load - 75.0gr. + 10 oz. (.0185-.0225") denim patch and an oil-type lube, ie: LHV. Hoppe's #9 Plus shoots exactly the same load.  For a 2F load, the gun demands the same ball and patch, along with 85gr. 2F.  both these laods are over 2,000fps and with a zero at 25,. are 0'd at 50 and only 2 1/2" to 3" low at 100.

Note that I do not wipe or clean the barrel until the day's shooting is over, be it 20 shots or 100 shots.  The accuracy does not change during shooting at all - it always stacks them off the bags.  It never fouls with this load, as it will with a thinner patch.  Also, a thinner patch will not give you the accuracy I am getting.

If using a water based lube, like spit, or WWW fluid (Winter Windshield-Washer) fluid & cooking oil (25:1) the powder requirements will be approximately 10gr. under what I've listed.  The more slippery the lube, the more powder it seems to take to maintain accuracy.  Any of the lubes listed will allow unlimited shots without having to wipe.

If this load is too difficult to load, your muzzle's crown needs attention.  if you haven't polished your crown, it's now time to do it. There are several threads here that should surface with a 'search'.  We ALL shoot this combination ratio up here - .005" under ball and 10 oz. denim or same thickness ticking patches, ie: around .020" thick.  None of us has to wipe at any time, not even the beginners, and loading is easy- not two fingers, but perhaps three.

[T.O.]

This information is amazing.  Thanks a lot fellows,  I have some shopping to do now and will try to start making sparks this weekend.    what is 10oz denim?   blue jeans like Levis? 

[Daryl]

Jeans come in several different 'weights' form the thinnest to the thickest.  We buy cloth at the local sewing good stroe. Some buy at Walmart.

  Most shops stock denim in bolts listed in weight - ie: 6,8,10 or 12 oz.  The 6OZ I've found is useless for anything - 8oz is about .015", 10 oz. runs .018 to .022" dpeending on who's measuring it and 12oz. is the heaviest I've seen & is what I use in the .69, as well as in a .58 with a .562" ball(.008" rilfing).

I've a wreched pair of Harcards I'm going to try for patch - seems about the same measure on the backs of the legs as the 10oz. denim, although it 'feels' thicker.

[T.O.]

Thanks again Daryl. Thanks also SCLoyalist and Horseman.  I got enuf stuff to get started for this weekend. I can't wait to fire that first shot.   I am itching to see what a "flash in the pan" really is.  I have heard it all my life.  just never saw a real one up close...I really value the advice.  Anyone else that is reading this post, please offer some of your tips.  This flintlock greenhorn would appreciate it.

[Bill of the 45th]

The load advice is good, but as you are a new rock locker, I would start by getting comfortable with your rifle.  I would start with FFFG powder, and stick with it for a while, work with that and one ball patch combo.  Work on being able to keep it operating without klatches, or flash in the pans.  Keeping your flint sharp, and tight in the cock will remove a lot of frustration in the future.  Your rifle should work well with FFFG in the pan, especially if you live in a high humidity area.  I assume you are aware that a flintlock won't work  with the synthetic powders, you need REAL black powder.  The next important part is cleaning, and the best cleaner is water with a drop or two of dish soap to about a pint of H2O.  Some like it boiling hot some room temp. they all work well, just do it soon after shooting, and it will be an easy job.  Save money, and don't waste time on fancy cleaners.  More money for powder, and ball.  Also welcome to the ALR.

Bill  

[SCLoyalist]

I am itching to see what a "flash in the pan" really is.  I have heard it all my life.  just never saw a real one up close...

Well, that does bring up one point...if you're doing what you're supposed to, you won't ever see a flash in the pan, even when it happens.    Keep focused on that front sight and the pan fireworks will be out of your field of view.

By the way, in my opinion, flintlocks pose less chance of  eye injury than caplock rifles,  but, even so, if you don't need to wear eyeglasses to see to shoot, you ought to wear a set of safety glasses.   

Happy shooting. 

[Standing Bear]

Hmmmm.  Flash in the pan occurs when the main charge does not ignite so there is only a flash in the pan.  Yes, you will soon become a member of the wretched dry load club. 

Get a good range rod and a ball puller.  Also, EVERYONE should have some 4F or even 7F on hand to trickle thru the touch hole or place under a nipple for those dry loads.

My experience mostly mirrors that of Daryl.  My pet flinter has a .40 caliber Douglas barrel in 1/66 twist.  The load is a .395 ball wrapped in .018 patch using 8:1 Balistol dry lube.  Sights are regulated to use 50 gr of Goex FFg for targets 50 yards and under and small game.  For 100 yards and hunting deer and varmits, I use 75 Gr FFg.  All prime is FFFFg.

However, I wipe between each shot as a matter of consistency and habit.  A flannel patch is moistened on the tongue and one swipe in and out is used.  On the next shot, the other side of the cleaning patch is used.

Enjoy the rifle and remember it is a journey, not a destination.  I began with a flinter in 1973 and am still trying to learn all I can about shooting same.

I agree, wear eye protection!

TC

[Candle Snuffer]

Congrats on the new flintlock, the more you shoot it - the more you'll like it and the more you'll get hooked.

I think at first everyone probably has a tendance to peak at the lock when they pull the trigger and the prime ignites.  That's a bad habit to get in to. 

Stay focused on the sights and forget about peaking at that lock when you pull the trigger.  Probably easier said then done at first, but you will get to the point where shooting your flintlock is the same as shooting a caplock and you won't even notice the prime igniting.

Enjoy the new rifle, it sounds like you've got a good one!

[T.O.]

    I am  hooked. No I  am addicted....  Probably will be selling a percussion pedersoli frontier before too much longer.  I don't want to run it down, but its just not the same.   I started shooting at 25 yds and it was 1ft low. Perfect right and left.   I backed up to 50 worked on increasing powder, 70 seems pretty good.  I had to take the front sight down, and I really took my time and gradually got it dead on at 50.  I wont be messing with it. 
     I never could get the 10 0z denim started with the 445 ball.  It was going to take a jack hammer, 015 pillow ticking was the same,  I wound up using 010 cotton patch fabric I bought by the yard at Dixie.  I lubed  the patches with hopes 9 plus ( white bottle).  I wiped with hoppes 9 + between shots.  Then 2 dry patches.  I tried a pre-lubed , precut 010 oxyoke patch today,  and dangit it worked great.   I hate that.  I am going to try a similar lube on the 010 cotton patch that I cut myself. 
     I did have to  manipulate the first flint I tried bevel up/down backwards and forwards.  Since I don't fully understand flint sharpening I just tried a different flint.  I am really enjoying this flint lock business.  I had always black substitute in my percussion guns.  This was my first time to shoot black powder. Once you try black you wont go back.   I am addicted to that as well.  Thanks alot, I do not feel that I was properly warned about the habit forming nature of flintlocks and black powder.   

[satwel]

T.O.

Welcome to the fraternity of flintlocks.
As you work up the best patch/ball/powder combination for your new rifle, don't forget to try spit. I've tried about every patch lube mentioned on this forum and I keep coming back to good old spit. For target work where I fire right after loading, I've yet to find any lube that delivers smaller groups and easier cleanup. FWIW, I use a .440 ball, 40lb drill cloth patching from Joannes Fabrics and 70 grains of 3F in my .45.

I used to get flashes-in-the-pan on a regular basis until I stopped wiping between shots. Now I regularly shoot entire matches (four relays) without a single missfire. I think wiping between shots just pushes the crud down against the breechplug where it accumulates and blocks the vent.

Also, to avoid frustration, use black English flints. I've never used the flints Rich Pierce knaps but they come highly recommended by others. Forget the cut agate flints that come in blister packs hanging on the wall of a gun store. They don't work. When I started shooting flintlocks, they gave me so many klatches I nearly gave up. Look for a gunstore that sells loose flints from divided plastic trays. That way you can pick and choose each flint for optimal shape and size. If I can't buy black English flints locally, I've had good luck ordering them over the internet from the many vendors mentioned on this forum. And learn how to sharpen your flints. There are many good tutorials on this forum. Just use the search function.

Remember to have fun.

[T.O.]

Thanks, I will try spit next.  I have got to study flint sharpening.  I am used to wiping between shots.  I hate doing it because it takes time.  I will try to go without wiping next time.  The patches just come out so dirty after each shot.  But it makes sense that I am pushing the crud to the back of the barrel.  Lots of fun and games ahead. 

[Candle Snuffer]

T.O.,

Here is a You-Tube video you may want to watch on knapping your flint.  It's the only one I could find, but my guess would be there are others around that show the same thing.

I use an old 3/8 'L' shaped Allen wrench to knap my flint.  It works.

[T.O.]

oh my, that looks so simple.  I saw a few other videos about muzzleloaders in there as well. Thanks.

[msw]

YES!!! We got another one!

to paraphrase the little green fellow in the movie,"Once rocks banged have you, forever will they dominate your range time."

[brewyak]

Yup welcome to the wonderfull world of rock locks.  Next you will make your own horn, pour your own balls, dress in period clothing, etc. . .

[T.O.]

yeah I am hooked,  I see the smoke in my dreams.  I am thinking of taking it down from the mantel now and squeezing off a few snaps at the house cat just to make some sparks. 

[T.O.]

I got to do a lot of shooting the last 2 days.  I am getting steadier, and thinking much less of the the ignition and more of the bulls eye.  I shot 445 balls with .015 patches.  I had been shooting .010 patches.  I still can not load a .018 denim patch.  It is dead on at 50 yds (with the 445 and .015, when I do my part.  The new problem is and I am serious;  I have got two perfectly nice cap lock guns that I don't really have a desire to shoot at this time.  I guess that is a common problem to new flintlock addicts.  I never thought it would happen to me. 

[Bill of the 45th]

Sell or trade them for flint, once you go flint, you never go back.  Keep focusing on the front sight, and target, and you'll never notice the flash.  Another thing for you to try, is to reduce the powder in the pan by half and try it.  Also move it away from the touch hole, and see how it works.  It's amazing how little you need, and too much can create a fusing effect, which, actually slows your ignition.

Bill

[T.O.]

I actually got one of those nice little plunger type priming horns and used that.  The first time I shot it I was using a little glass maple syrup  bottle from Cracker Barrel.  ( I was tried not to fill it up, but sometimes i spilled too much)  . I did  prime with much less powder using the priming horn, and my accuracy was improved.

 I actually went out and shot one of my caplocks  just before it go dark, I needed to check a new front sight out.  well I could not believe how fast the gun went off after shooting flint.  I do see a purpose for both.  But I am officially a  flint nut. 

[Roger Fisher]

Thanks, I will try spit next.  I have got to study flint sharpening.  I am used to wiping between shots.  I hate doing it because it takes time.  I will try to go without wiping next time.  The patches just come out so dirty after each shot.  But it makes sense that I am pushing the crud to the back of the barrel.  Lots of fun and games ahead. 

Knapping the edge!!  Holding the rifle in your left arm in the crook!!  Assuming you are right handed and the piece on half draw and pointed in the safe direction and said piece MT if possible...take a small knapping hammer or some such item and gently tap on the cutting edge of the flint and it will take small pieces of the flint off the edge and test with your thumb (gently now)  Your flint is now good to go again.  Remember to check the flint tightness in the jaws and replace the leather when it gets too hard and squeezed flat..  These answers could fill a book you will find out what works as you go on down the road. 

BTW Worn out flints can be reworked with a diamond file (takes time much time) or a diamond wheel...

[Daryl]

T.O. - a well performing flint rifle is almost but not quite as fast as a cap-lock - but close none the less.  They vary greatly gun to gun, with heavy musket locks usually being the slowest - but not always.  Concentrating on seeing the ball hit the target as you squeeze helps me.