Author Topic: Stitchin' Question...  (Read 10975 times)

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Stitchin' Question...
« on: June 23, 2010, 12:06:11 PM »


As you can see in the above photo, I have a hard time keeping my stitches lined up in a neat little line sometimes, especially like that in the top of the photo.  Is there a time tested secret to keeping them all on the same level and nice and neat looking?  I kinda think it may be that I am punching my holes a little too big for one thing.  So would wrapping tape around the blade of my awl at a set depth help that?

Thanks again for all the help folks!

David

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 02:10:27 PM »
  You need  stitching groovers. They are adjustable for edge clearance, and will cut a nice clean groove for your stitches to line up straight in, and being in the groove will protect the thread from wear. One type is the adjustable for edge work,  and there is also a free hand type for where there is no edge close to the stitch.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 02:13:28 PM by LRB »

BrownBear

  • Guest
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 05:58:10 PM »
Stitching groovers are good if the leather isn't too thin.  I've provided links to some other tools that are very useful.  They're Tandy links because that's what I have bookmarked, but the tools are available from lots of other vendors.  Many feel (and I agree) best quality is usually from Osborne, but the links will at least put pictures to words as you start your selection:

An overstitch wheel will help you regulate the spacing of your stitches.

Here is an adjustable stitching groover.

I like an adjustable creaser any time I don't want to actually cut the surface of the leather as happens with a stitching groover. That can be an issue when working with 2-3 oz leather.

If you're working far from an edge, use a straight edge to position things and a freehand groover to make your marks.

BTW- You didn't ask, but this is my favorite awl, though there are lots of others.  It's just the right size for my hand and best of all, the flat sides keep it from rolling around when you lay it down.  Saves awl points and your feet.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 06:00:21 PM by BrownBear »

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 10:19:02 PM »
Besides the advice on the tools mentioned above, something that will keep your stitches must neater is the technique of sewing.  If you always go under the opposite thread on one side of the leather and over the opposite thread on the other side of the leather, your stitches will be very uniform and look "finished."

Gus

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 11:07:33 PM »
I think this may be the same thing that Artificer is saying, but you will get a neater line if you start(where the needle goes in) a stitch (a saddle stitch)  from the side of the work that will show.    For some reason that method produces a straighter line on the finished side.    Like the others said, before you get to that point,  you need to layout the stitches with an overstitch wheel.   I do it wet and deep so that it makes a groove for the stitches to drop into.    I feel the indentations with the point of the awl.   It is very important that you put the tip of the awl exactly where you marked.   Just a little bit off will look bad.

Mark E.

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 11:36:07 PM »
Thanks guys!

Yeah I use an overstitch wheel and an adjustable groover, but don't always use the groover.  I think I will get myself an adjustable creaser as well. 

Since I am now unemployed, I think I will get started on that next ba...

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 12:38:43 AM »
   Mark, about starting the stitch from the show side. I discovered that years ago, but have never known why. It did make a difference, so I just do it that way. I always thought it was just something to do with something I was doing, or not doing. I do not recall ever seeing, or hearing  mention of that before you brought it up, but it is true.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 12:54:50 AM »
LRB,

It is something I also discovered on my own.    You are the only other person I have ever heard mention it.

Mark E.

Offline G. Elsenbeck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 01:19:48 AM »
I'll agree with both of you Mark and LRB.   When I started getting back into leather sewing I first started beginning the stitching from the 'underside' and I didn't like the line I ended up with.  Soon after that I always have started the stitching from the 'finished side' because the uniformity of the line looks, well, finished.

Roaring Bull, besides technique on your saddle stitching, be sure to draw your threads tight the same on EVERY completed stitch OR your line will look unsavory, no matter how straight you make it.

Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 01:25:07 AM »
Thanks much gentlemen!  Got the table set up in the living room to start working on that next bag tomorrow...since I ain't gotta goto work :-\

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 07:31:45 AM »
Artificier, I am having trouble visualizing your tip.  Can you help out with a photo?  It would be appreciated. 

Offline fm tim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 04:12:04 PM »
If you use an overstitch wheel to layout the stitching, and follow it with the stitching, finish by running the overstitch wheel over the finished stitches.  That makes them even more uniform.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 06:49:07 PM »
Artificier, I am having trouble visualizing your tip.  Can you help out with a photo?  It would be appreciated.  

Jerry, I'm sorry I don't have a computer capable camera.  

Like Mark, I discovered this on my own in the 70's when I noticed I was doing something that made the stitches neater.  Then I had to figure out what I was doing.  When the Cordwainer at Colonial Williamsburg graciously gave me some great tips in the early 80's, he was doing it as well, but with a different way of explaining it.  I believe Mark and I are saying the same thing in a different way.  

Maybe this will explain it better.  Think of using two needles with thread and then sewing with just one needle through four or five holes.   Then with the other needle,  start the point of the needle through the hole through the leather pieces on the left side with the needle going over the thread line made by the first needle.  After you pull it through to the right side and go on to the next hole, start the point of the needle into the next hole under the thread line.   When you push the needle through and pull the thread through, then start the point of the needle over the thread line when you come back towards the right side.  What this does is give the thread of the stitches a sort of an angled look all the way down the line, but it keeps them all the same from a visual standpoint.

This is actually how I first did it in buckskin with artificial sinew when I discovered why some stitches were better looking.  I would sew two or three holes with one needle and pull that thread tight, then sew with the second needle with the point over the thread on one side and under on the other side, then over on the first side and under on the other side all the way down.  

However, the Cordwainer at Colonial Williamsburg showed me a technique of keeping a threaded needle in each hand most of the time.  He said that with thicker leather, you have to push each needle through the same hole and pull both strings tight before you go onward.  I noticed he was still placing the points of the needles so  the thread would tighten up so the stitches looked slightly diagonal all the way down - but in a groove - it is harder to notice.

Now, if I have confused you even more by my poor description, then may I suggest buying Al Stohlman's book on Handsewing Leather.  This book wasn't written when I started out and did not have a mentor.  However, I bought the book in the early 80's and it has paid for itself I don't know how many times over through the years.

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/search/searchresults/61944-00.aspx?feature=Product_18&kw=al+stohlman

Gus
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 06:54:32 PM by Artificer »

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 09:02:01 PM »
Gus,  your second description I understand.  I am one of those who never take classes or finding  a mentor , always figured things out for myself until I got to this website.  Strangely enough, I had recently figured out that in making my saddle stitches it seemed to work best if the needle always went on the high side of the awl mark from the front and the needle from the back always came out on the low side of the awl mark.  Makes a uniform line.  And that seems to be exactly what you are saying. 

Hadn't discovered creasers yet though.  Have to try that.  Using the stitch wheel to space the awl points was a great advance along with inserting the awl blade at the same angle (about 45 degrees to the line of stitches) and same depth so the holes are uniform.  Thanks for your help.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 10:56:26 PM »
Some stitching tips:
1) Get AL Sohlman's book as recommended by Articifer - it is well worth the price and even after 50 years of sewing leather I still refere to it at times - even includes how to use hog bristles as a needle
2) see here - some excellent tips http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?13852-Stitching-Tips - some of it is a bit different than the "American" method which tends to give a straighter line of stitching rather than the somewhat more slanted style - both are right just different
To compare here's a couple of pics of my American method of sewing, front and back - this is 5 cord linen at 7 SPI:






3) My own tutorial on handsewing - a bit of an alternative to the tradtitional method that I developed after getting injured. Many of my students over the years since I have found this to be a bit easier to learn and still get a good stitch:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_leatherstitch.html

RB - are you using a clam (aka stitching horse)? On thin leather this is IMO important because it will help prevent wrinlkles and allow you to pull the threads more evenly......

re: Mark's and Wick's point on starting from the front/outside - I got a big grin because it's actually the opposite of how one does the saddle stitch traditionally -  the reason being that when using and awl and two needles you stab a hole from the "front" with your awl and as you with draw the tip you follow it with the back side needle on which side the hole is smaller, one that needle is pushed through you push the front needle through the slightly larger hole on the front. I originally learned how-to sew the "right" way from an old German harnessmaker who would smack my hands with a yard stick when I wasn't doing it right aka his way..........

as to how to the angle of your awl - from Mr. Stohlman's book:


hope this helps.........
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2010, 01:37:48 AM »
Jerry,

You are most welcome.

Chuck,

I was hoping you would come in on this thread.  Yours is a superb post.

Gus

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 05:15:51 AM »
Quote
I got a big grin because it's actually the opposite of how one does the saddle stitch traditionally -

Chuck,

That is par for the course.   I have been doing it wrong for almost 40 years!   ;D

Mark E.


Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 03:07:17 PM »
  Me too, and it's so hard to quit. I will even fess up to often drilling my stitch holes.  :-[ :'(. But I may try the right way next high end sheath I make. Most of mine are simple, and made by simple methods.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 03:52:18 PM »
Mark & Wick - I'm one of those folks who reckon while there are wrong ways of doing things there is generally no single right way to do something -  it's what works for you and gives you the look you want that counts even if not exactly perfect or different from the "experts".....As noted in my post and tutorial I had to adapt my methods after my neck injury back in 1982 since I simply could no longer hold both needles and the awl in my hands at the same time - it may not be a perfect solution but it allowed me to continue to do leatherwork - reckon my old German teacher would have been appalled and smaked me up side the head with a four pound mall if he saw me doing it "my way"! ;)

Gus - you're welcome. With work piled and lots of fixits after last winters storms, I don't have a lot of extra time these days to post much, but I try to when and where I may hopefully be of help.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 04:01:57 PM »
Well I've been sitting back and reading, but I want to thank all for the responses and the great dialogue on this subject!!

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 10:54:54 PM »
A few more rambling thoughts.

If you are sewing leather on the order of 2 to 3 oz. for something like money or flint wallets, I don't advise using a groover to keep the stitches straight.  I have found it is too easy to cut too deep into the leather and the "sewed joints" will be weak.  Saw that happen on a flint wallet once and when the guy pushed a flint in one of the pockets, the leather tore out around the stitches.  (One time I didn't make the original mistake.  Grin.) 

If I'm going to dye that thin of leather black, I will use an black ink pen to mark the line for the stitches.  (Tried using a pencil for other colored leather and I don't recommend that because it is often difficult to get the pencil marks off.)  For natural or colors other than black, I use a blunt rounded "ball" tip punch or scribe to lay out the line.  I put a steel rule where I want the line and run the rounded tip back and forth against the edge to just crush the surface of the leather a bit.  You do it just enough so you can see the line to run the overstitch wheel along the line to mark your hole positions.  Then when you punch the holes, the line is covered and you don't have to worry about anything affecting the dye around the stitches. 

When you use an overstitch wheel to mark your holes on a line,  I've found it best to mark or even punch the hole on each end of the line and then run the overstitch wheel from BOTH outside holes inward.  I do it sort of softly the first time I run the wheel on the leather.   That shows me what the hole distance will be at the center so I don't wind up with the overstitch wheel making an indent too close to the outside hole - if I had just run the wheel from one side to the other.  You can choose NOT to not make the last hole or two or three in the center with the wheel and do it by eyeball to get an even hole distance in the center.  Some folks also do that towards the left or right side to hide the uneven stitch or two you often have to do.   

When I'm doing something with thin leather like a wallet.  I punch the holes on the large piece of the leather that forms the outside of the wallet.  I often punch the holes by laying the leather flat on a piece of scrap pine and watch to make sure I'm punching straight down.  Then I take the smaller pieces that form the pockets and punch a hole on the left and right ends.  I put the smaller piece on the pine board and lay the larger piece over it and then use two pins that go through both pieces of leather on the outside left and right holes.  I tap the pins into the scrap pine to hold the leather pieces in alignment.  Then I use the awl going through the holes in the larger piece of leather on the outside to punch through the leather underneath it.  It "self aligns"' the holes and no need to worry about not getting the holes to line up from using an overstitch wheel separately on the two pieces of leather, when you punch the holes in the second (smaller) piece of leather. 

Oh, some folks wet and stretch the smaller pieces of leather that are sewn inside the wallet to hold the flints or money before they cut and sew it.  I usually don't do that because I want a little stretch in the leather for the flints or whatever is going to go in the pockets. 

On larger pieces of leather to make something like a shooting pouch, I always lay out and punch all holes in the leather that will show from the outside.  I usually do it on a piece of plywood about 3 foot square.  Then I make a couple holes in the piece that will be sewn to it on the ends and maybe the center.  Then I put pins through both pieces of leather into the plywood to hold the pieces while I punch the holes into the second piece.  I don't believe most saddlers do it that way, but that's how I get a better fit of the leather and get the stitches to look better.  Even on a bag I turn the sewn leather inside out, I still do that because even if most people can't see the stitching, I know what it is like. 

If I use a groover on three to four ounce leather, I only cut very lightly into the leather.  For four to six ounce, you can cut a bit deeper and still have enough leather thickness where you stitch it that it will be strong.

Sorry I sort of rambled, but I thought you may find something useful here.
Gus

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 01:52:05 AM »
 ;D You guys can ramble all you want, its how we learn. from the experience of others!!

What I did today to make my line was use the back on the groover to make the line and then wet the leather a little...seemed to show up well enough to get my overstitcher rolled.

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2010, 08:37:37 PM »
I don't use a groover, but sometimes I will wet the leather and drag the awl point along the edge as if making a border. This doesn't cut away anything and weaken the leather.

Isn't it strange how we all admire hand work that is so good it looks like the machine made stuff that we are trying to avoid in the first place ?

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Stitchin' Question...
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 02:42:29 AM »
Isn't it strange how we all admire hand work that is so good it looks like the machine made stuff that we are trying to avoid in the first place ?

Pete,

That's a question that came to my mind over 35 years ago.  However it is a question that could only be raised by people who were raised in an electrified machine age.  Grin.  Please allow my poor attempt to explain.

It doesn't matter if something is made entirely by hand, or by the combination of hand and simple (human powered) machines or completely by a computer operated machine;  it is our eyes, brain and "sense of order" we have that tells us if something is esthetically pleasing.  A machine can make ten, a hundred, a thousand or even a million or more parts to almost exactly the same size, but it can not tell if the part will "look good" on a rifle, shooting pouch, knife, etc., etc..  IOW, a machine leaves out the factor of individual taste and forces us to settle for what we like best out of what is offered, rather than what we would like to have and what looks good to our individual taste. 

To illustrate my point, I would like to use two things from the basic time period of the ALR.  The first is the ALR itself in that there were so many "schools' or variations of the ALR going on at the same time period.  Obviously, the gunsmiths in each school felt they were making the best looking rifle and generally made them in the same style for each school, though to the customer's order and at least some of his specifications.  A customer who would have had access to more than one "school" of gunsmiths would have figured out which one he liked best. 

The other and maybe better example is shoes made by a real cordwainer vs a shoemaker or a cobbler vs machine made shoes.   A cordwainer made/makes shoes that are esthetically pleasing PLUS are made to better fit the individuals foot and made with great style (whatever the style in fashion or for what purpose.)  A shoemaker or cobbler made shoes that basically fit the individuals foot, but generally were not finished as pleasing to the eye.  A machine can make a pleasing shoe (if someone designs the shoe in the first place to copy), but it can not properly fit the shoe to the person.  Even though machines can make many sizes of shoes in far greater numbers, they don't really fit the individual as you have to find the shoe size that comes closest to your foot and accept that - rather than have a shoe made for your feet.   The Cordwainer at Williamsburg told me in the 80's that they made many pairs of shoes for folks who had foot problems and had to have special orthopedic shoes made, BUT after using handmade shoes, they did not need the orthopedic shoes and the handmade shoes felt and worked much better for them.  The Cordwainer also showed me things about the construction of the shoes that could not be readily replicated by a machine.  Finally, a machine does not do the same kind of stitching that is done by hand is is actually inferior to a hand sewn stitch in two ways. 

I suggest we start from the basic time period when the "best quality" leather work and hand stitching looked extremely uniform and pleasing to the eye.  A machine could replicate an extremely uniform stitch over straight areas, but many machines still won't make a good looking stitch around compound corners or various shapes.  So what they did and still do is to change the shape or construction of something so the machine could sew it properly and the stitches look good.  (This is what happens in machine made vs hand made shoes by a Cordwainer.)

The other important thing is that while machine sewn leather stitches are very uniform, they won't wear as long as hand sewn stitches.  Allow me to illustrate that using two links.  The first link shows how a modern sewing machine sews even the "best" stitch known as a lock stitch:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/sewing-machine1.htm

The second link by our own Chuck Burrows shows an illustration by Al Stohlman on how the hand sewn stitch will not come apart as easily as the machine sewn lock stitch, when a stitch is broken:

http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/tut_wrtc_burrows.shtml

I didn't know this when I first began hand sewing leather in the 1970's.  However, to gain experience in hand sewing, I repaired a LOT of leather gun belts then in use by Police Officers.  The stitching on the belts I had repaired came unstrung  exactly as Al Stohlman illustrated and in the areas of the highest stress or abrasion of the stitches.   I only got two police gun belts back after I had repaired them, but it was not for the areas I had hand sewn, it was in different areas that had been machine sewn.  When I first visited the Cordwainer's shop in Colonial Williamsburg and he talked about how hand sewn stitches were stronger and lasted longer than machine sewn, the police belts came to mind.  Now, any real saddler or leather working professional knew that then, but I didn't apprentice under a saddler or cordwainer, so I didn't realize it until after I had been told by the Cordwainer.  In our modern age, we are used to things not fitting as well or wearing out faster thanks to many things made by machines that aren't as well made, but last "long enough" and are "cheap enough" they do the job.   

Now before any real machinists reading this want to tar and feather me and thrust me on a rail to run me out of town, I also must give them their due.  It is just not possible or economical to do so many things by hand and to such precision measurements if we didn't have machines.  We would never have gone to space, won great wars, or have the standard of living we have in this country without machines and ESPECIALLY without REAL machinists.  We still need real machinists to ensure the machines are making stuff correctly and to design and operate machines correctly.  Anyone involved with Computer Assisted Machining techniques should have plenty of experiences where there were real problems that had or have to be fixed "by hand."   As we go to ever more use of CAM machines, we are losing much of the ART and experience that REAL machinists perform.