Material?

[Jim Cook]

I have a "First Model Brown Bess Musket flint lock kit, Willits - 1746" from Track of the Wolf that I'm putting together. I would like to use some of the techniques mentioned in Kit Ravenshear's "Simplified V - Springs" manual for hardening and tempering. Thus, I need to know what material are the springs made from, anybody know?

By-the-way, nice castings and Kit's booklet is great.

[Metalshaper]

1075 to 1090 'spring' stock.. depending on who you ask!!
Dixie sells it in various thicknesses.. and you can get it from Admiral Steel http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/200/spring_steel.html

this should get you somewhere??

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[B.Habermehl]

If I'm not mistaken Kit tells you to use 1070 or 1095 steel in his little booklet.  I any case 1070 or 1095 steels are your go to matierial.  BJH

[Bill of the 45th]

Dixon's has it also, Got some last year at the show.


Bill

[Dphariss]

I have a "First Model Brown Bess Musket flint lock kit, Willits - 1746" from Track of the Wolf that I'm putting together. I would like to use some of the techniques mentioned in Kit Ravenshear's "Simplified V - Springs" manual for hardening and tempering. Thus, I need to know what material are the springs made from, anybody know?

By-the-way, nice castings and Kit's booklet is great.

High carbon steel.
The steel Kit recommended is easy to work and makes a good spring. 1070-75 from DGW as I recall.

Dan

[California Kid]

He already has the cast springs from TRS. What are they made of?  Probably 1095. Just guessing!

[P.W.Berkuta]

Try Jantz Knife Supply < http://jantzsupply.com/cartease/item-detail.cfm?ID=XH0820 > they have 1095 at a very good price. Dixie has 1075 (price not as good as Jantz) which is a little more forgiving in the heat treat department - water vs oil quench.

[LRB]

  TRS springs are listed in their catalog as 6150.

[Jim Cook]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment.

I have the Track of the Wolf kit and was asking "what material was used to make the spring castings"?

I have Kit's spring book and I know what he suggests.

But again, my question was "what material was used to make the cast springs in the Track kit?"

Thank you

I have a "First Model Brown Bess Musket flint lock kit, Willits - 1746" from Track of the Wolf that I'm putting together. I would like to use some of the techniques mentioned in Kit Ravenshear's "Simplified V - Springs" manual for hardening and tempering. Thus, I need to know what material are the springs made from, anybody know?

By-the-way, nice castings and Kit's booklet is great.

[Stophel]

6150 seems to be universal for cast springs.

[ramserl]

understand your question.  Does TOW get the lock kit from TRS?  The springs I got from TRS was 1095.
Not very forgiving in heat treating.

[LRB]

  It is my understanding that TOW gets the kits from TRS. My catalog is 2007-2008. Maybe they changed the spring steel, but this catalog says 6150 for springs and frizzens.

[dannybb55]

By material, do you mean alloy? The material is steel, kinda general term.

[LRB]

  If your spring is indeed 6150, here's the heat treat for it.
  heat to 1575° / 1650° F. Soak at temp for 10 minutes, if possible, then quench in warmed oil that is around 120°. temper at 750°. I would suggest the temper be done in lead in a pot with temp control, and let it soak at least 30 minutes. A double temper would likely be even better. TRS says to heat to a bright red, drop in room temp water, polish, heat to a dark blue black, lay on a piece of wood to cool. Take your pick. If it cracks in the water, you'll have to buy another.
   I cannot find that lock in TRS, dated at 1746, so TOW may be getting them elsewhere.

[Jim Cook]

Thanks for all the replies.

Track did send me the following answer:
"All of the wax cast springs that we make are cast of 6150 steel.
This alloy as a "wide tempering window", unlike earlier 1095 steel, which makes great springs, but requires critical tempering precision.  Kit Ravenshear discusses these alloys in his book "Simplified V Springs", which we recommend.  His "oil flash tempering" technique works."

I plan on following Kit's instructions exactly. It will be interesting to see how well it turns out.

[Dphariss]

I misunderstood.
I would reform the frizzen and mainspring if they don't show good preload, they are likely flat if cast from an original lock.

Dan

[ramserl]

tried to oil temper my springs and had no luck.  polished bright and heated to blue on a peice of copper plate.  would like to play around some more with Ravenshears directions.  I know my temper is not the best but if they break then I have to try somthing new

[LRB]

  There are different heat treats for different steels. If your spring is from the higher carbon 10XX steels, it needs to hardened to it's max hardness before the temper. That requires either a very fast cooling oil, or brine, and the steel to be around  1475° / 1500°. That is well above non-magnetic which is only 1414°. Your best temper will be a molten lead soak at around 650°. Lead melts at 625°, so if you do not have temp control, you can kinda guess at the temp. Even at 625° you will get a spring. 650° just makes it a bit less apt to break later on. Warmed canola oil is about as close as you can get to a fast cooling commercial oil, but may be too fast for 6150, which requires a medium fast oil. 6150 would probably do well quenched in warmed ATF oil. Heating on a copper plate and judging colors is not the best way to temper any steel, and it is always best to double temper because after a single temper, steel will reharden to a certain degree, given a little time, and may become brittle later on. The second temper prevents this from happening. 1095 is not so much critical in the temper process as it is in the hardening process. If you can get it to at least 62 RC without cracking,  tempering it is easy. To reach max hard, which is the goal, 1095 has to cool from it's critical heat of near 1500° to below 900° in a second or less. If not, it will have a poor carbon/iron structure, and not be as strong as it should be after all is said and done.

[Jim Kibler]

  Your best temper will be a molten lead soak at around 650°. Lead melts at 625°, so if you do not have temp control, you can kinda guess at the temp. Even at 625° you will get a spring. 650° just makes it a bit less apt to break later on.

The tempering temperature should be chosen to produce material with a hardness in the mid to lower 40's on the Rockwell C scale.  You will likely be able to get away with a harder or softer spring for one that doesn't have much stress in service, but for a V-mainspring that is heavily stressed this seems to be a good hardness to shoot for.  The tempering temperature to produce a structure with this hardness will of course vary with material.  For example, I recently made some springs out of O-1 steel.  These required a tempering temperature of around 950-1000 F.  I referenced a tempering chart for 6150 steel and it indicated a tempering temperature in the range of 800-850 F should yield a stucture with a hardness in the above reference range.  Tempering at 650F will likely produce a structure with a hardness above 50 HRC.  A little too hard for a mainspring in my view.

[Dphariss]

tried to oil temper my springs and had no luck.  polished bright and heated to blue on a peice of copper plate.  would like to play around some more with Ravenshears directions.  I know my temper is not the best but if they break then I have to try somthing new

Warm the oil to 120+ and use light oil like motor oil thinned with diesel or Marvels Mystery oil.
Also be aware the cast spring may be good for nothing but a pattern.
Put the spring in straight down point first to avoid warping.
You may need a forge or Acetylene torch to get the heat high enough on a large spring.
Dan

[LRB]

  650° to 700° in 1095 makes a good spring. 1085/95 was the steel I was discussing. 6150 ranges from 700° to 900° depending on what you want.

[ramserl]

I do agree cast springs are good for a pattern!!

[J.D.]

While I probably am not the best person to offer advise on heat treating, IMHO, Ravenshear's instructions leave a lot to be desired. He suggests heating the spring to nonmagnetic, quenching in 30 wt oil, and tempering in burning oil.

The problem with heating to nonmagnetic is that nonmag is only about 1425 degrees, and not hot enough to produce the desired results. IMHO, steel needs to be heated a color or two above nonmag, to 1550 F, then soaked at that temp for the appropriate time.

I suggest quenching 6150 transmission oil, as Wick mentioned, then tempering in a temp controlled lead bath.

That said, find a piece of sheet lead to make a pattern of the cast spring before it breaks. Bend the pattern flat and trace it onto sheet steel for a permanent template. Mark the bend on the template and you're good to go.
 
As an addendum. While I have had limited success with tempering springs by heating them on a steel plate, I do know people who have used this method with good success...with 1070 series steel.

IMHO, a bright blue color is only about 570 degrees, F. Not nearly enough heat to properly temper any spring intended for use on a ML. One must have the ability to discern the subtle gray colors as the temp passes from bright blue to the light blue and through the light gray spectrum to an increasing slightly darker  gray, which is about 750-800 degrees F. Otherwise, a new may spring in in order.

http://anvilfire.com/index.php?bodyName=/FAQs/temper_colors_hardness.htm&titleName=Temper%20Colors%20and%20Steel%20Hardness%20:%20anvilfire.com

Notice that this chart includes Rc hardness for the various the temp colors, for those plain carbon steels.   

One last word of caution in using tempering colors, they must be viewed in consistent lighting to produce consistent results. IMHO, the colors will appear differently in different lighting conditions, which can adversely affect the final result of your heat treating.

God bless

[Dave Dolliver]

The molten lead bath--my electric casting pot has worked well for me.  I usually have it set for a bit over  700 degrees and let the spring float for 10-15 minutes to heat all the way thru.

Dave Dolliver

[Jim Kibler]

  650° to 700° in 1095 makes a good spring. 1085/95 was the steel I was discussing. 6150 ranges from 700° to 900° depending on what you want.

To each his own...  This is the last comment I'll make on the subject.  Tempering 1095 that is fully hard at 650-700 F will result in a hardness of well over 50 HRC.  Likely approaching 55 HRC.  As I said previously, you may get away with this on a spring that isn't highly stressed, but I would not use this approach on  a mainspring.  This isn't just me talking.  Reference JHAT Volume I article on lock making by Gary Brumfield.  On page 75 you will see an editor's (John Bivins) note concerning tempering on 1095 steel.  It suggests a tempering temperature of 850-900F when using 1095 on a mainspring.  Further follow the following link to an article written by James Kelly:  http://www.lrml.org/technical/gunsmithing/heattreatml.pdf
This is a good article on metallurgy as it pertains to muzzleloading from a modern technical standpoint.  Lots of good information there.  Finally, just another note, this isn't just some fool talking that has read the internet too much.  I spent a good portion of my life studying this stuff.  The end.