Development of the upper E. TN style rifle

[Ken G]

The recent comments in "A darn tootin nice Tennessee rifle!" got me to thinking.  I know....the Hamster is running but the wheel isn't turning.  

Anyhow, where and how did the style develop and why on earth would they start running the tang up and over the comb?  I can tell you from first hand experience it is a royal pain to draw one out on the forge and maybe that's part of the reason to show off blacksmithing skills?  
The Bull rifles are very architecturally different from other E. TN rifles but they still share other TN traits like the over the comb tang and banana box style patchbox.  As Guy pointed out, the Bulls and Beans were about as early as you will see from TN so where did this come from?  The banana box might make sense if you sign on to the theory that the Conestoga Wagon company was making them and shipping ready made items to various gun builders.  I find that theory hard to apply to the long tangs.  

Thoughts?  Comments?  

Ken

[heinz]

Ken, thanks for starting this thread.  It should be interesting.  I regret I hve not noted the dimensions on every banana box I have observed but my impression is there is quite a bit of variation in length and width.  Thuis would be consistent with them not being a mass produced product. 

The fact hat the Bean's and the Bulls both adopted this style suggest that there may have been a precedent existing in Eastern Tennessee or perhaps Western Va or North Carolina for this style  before 1790.  We probably have to think in tems of the migration routes, down both the Cumberland and the Tennessee, we also should consider that the Indian wars stayed late on both river routes.  They certainly represent a completely different artistic view then the roccoco carving and brass mountings of the Pa rifles.  The long comb is a lot of work for an artistic statement.  The Hawken style wrist, which may have some relation, is mach simpler and possibly much stronger with the bolting through to the trigger plate.  The existence of a number of examples of the smith leaving his hammer work visible on iron parts such as the trigger guard or  even the barrel suggest there is  adifferent view of the rifle craft being shown in this area.

[T.C.Albert]

Though I've always been told they were decorative in nature, perhaps the tang was initially extended over the comb to reinforce them...even if they didnt often break or split there...? Or maybe they were thinking it did indeed strengthen the wrist some as well though I cant see how. This really is a good question to think about. Are there othe examples of mountain smith/wood work that exhibit similar decoration? I am guessing that these gun makers made lots of other things too?

Also, if it was only a popular regional decorative trend, then why didnt mountain pistol tangs wrap around to the butt cap decoratively as well? (or did they sometimes?)

The "Bean" style bananna patch boxes generally had 7 knuckles as well
I think...are there other styles in iron that have this feature too? It may help to regionilize them? Seven is harder to do than 5 as well...

does it all just show the smiths were proud of thier abilities and were showing off? They were definately using what they had so it was a display of skill not opulence...that is if there is no other reason?
TCA
 

 

[Ken G]

Heinz and Tim,
Good thoughts!  I agree that there are many variations of the banana box. Too many variations in my book for them to have been mass produced unless they were just send as 2 pieces of steel already hinged for the gunsmith to finish off.  I have seen a large number of the lids with 7 knuckles but seems like theres a good many with 5 as well. They would have been shipped in mass for years given the number of gunsmiths using them and the timespan they cover. It seems to me that somewhere something would have shown up either in the way of a shipping records or some gunsmith having 20 or 30 in stock at time of death to support this.  I have a hard time with the theory although I'm keeping an open mind.
I have given a lot of thought to the strengthen the wrist theory and the long tang. Maybe it does strengthen the wrist but why bring it over the comb? Why not stop with a lollipop of doll's head looking tang that terminates at the base of the comb?  I can't say that I have seen a bunch of guns with the point of comb busted up indicating a need for steel reinforcement of the point of the comb. 
One more point, the over the comb tang disappears when you move South and with MOST later guns.  The exception that sticks out in my mind is Lawing.  I believe he continued making over the comb tangs.
Ken

Ken

[WElliott]

Interesting topic, Ken.  I have seen such a great variety in lengths and shapes of Tennessee banana boxes that it would be hard to believe they were using ready-made stock. Particularly when we consider that the early East Tennessee makers obviously made their own buttplates and guards.  Over the 20 years or so from what I believe is the earliest identified East Tennessee iron-mounted rifle, the Jos. Bogle rifle of the 1790s- pictured in the Library- to the earliest examples we have of work by the Bulls and Beans, dating from ca. 1815-25, a new form did apparently evolve.  The fully developed iron-mounted, banana box, over-the-comb tang and bold trigger guard rifle we all identify as archetypal East Tennessee seems to have developed within that period.  It does not seem that an inletted thin over-the-comb tang would strength to the wrist.  My thesis is that it was a "mine is longer than yours" bit of sport the old boys were enjoying as they developed their individual styles.  Once someone ran a tang all the way back to meet the butt extension (as some did), the game was up.
Wayne

[Ken G]

I guess it might be the same thought process as having a 2 base front sight and then even the 3 base front sight.  I have never seen any advantage for that.  It's pure showboating.  If 1 grease hole is good then 2 muct be better.   
In reading these post I also think of the increase in length of the buttplate comb on a TN rifle and later the increase in the height of a Soddy buttplate comb.  They have a gentle taper to them that isn't the easiest thing to do.  Far easier to make a short comb plate. 
I do see function in the deep cresent curve.  It hooks nicely under you arm and gives leverage with a loong barreled gun. 

[heinz]

Ken, I agree that there was a lot os "show boating" or art as you could also call it but it seems primarily in metal and stock architecture, not in embellishments. (Well maybe two dovetails and a long tang are sort of embellishment :-)

The other major change was in the stock architecture to where the taper viewed from above goes down from the wrist to the butt .  I have often thought these guns are particularly suitable to being shot from a rest while maintaining off hand useability.  The crescent buttplate is comfortable in shooting from a chunk. 
There seems to be a evolution of more extreme styles as you look to the south and west parts of the Tennessee settlement paths with the area south of the Tennessee River being the most extreme styles, but i would not call that upper east Tennessee.  Some of the upper east tennessee may have filtered down from Kentucky

[Ken G]

There seems to be a evolution of more extreme styles as you look to the south and west parts of the Tennessee settlement paths with the area south of the Tennessee River being the most extreme styles

Do you mean the SOddy-Daisy style rifles?

[G-Man]

The subject of Tennessee pistols was discussed a few weeks back.  The famous silver mounted Baxter Bean pistols have tangs wrapping all the way around the butts.  However, the two Bull pistols I have seen, have tangs more like you would expect on something from Virginia or North Carolina.

I've seen patchbox hinges ranging from 3 to 9 knuckles on banana patchboxes from East Tennessee.  There were many variations - Elisha Bull seems to have sometimes used slightly wider versions of the patchbox (but not always).  Some were skinny and very long, with pointed ends, like the Jacob Gross rifle. There are even captured lid-versions of the box.  If you go to Art's website and do a search for "Tennssee" you will pull up a lot of photos Jan has taken at the shows in recent years, and can see a broad range.


Guy

[heinz]

Ken, I was refering to the Soddy/Daisy styles.  They seem to have psuhed the mountain rifle style to an extreme, sort of the Bedford rifles of Tennessee.  I do not know much about them however and have no idea of their evolution and early traits.

[Dancy]

Taking it way back to the "Old Holston Rifle" of which Gusler states in his March 04 MB article "as a cornerstone example for the southwest Virginia rifle and the iron-mounted tradition that spreads through Tennessee and several adjoining states", what are your thoughts? How much do you think it relates to the later upper E. TN rifles and influenced them? Is it the Grand Daddy of the E. TN. rifles?? 

[chuck c.]

Ken,
I believe the over the comb tang began as an artistic statement to make one gun makers product stand out and above another. I know that it has to be harder to do, because I've been fretting over attempting it. I wanted to do it on the rifle I just finished, but I lacked the confidence to try. It would only stand to reason that if a customer saw this advanced skill level applied to a rifle, not to mention that a some point in time it had to be unique, it must have been produced by an individual with a high level of skill. Therefore you could conclude that the whole building process was done by an individual with a higher skill level than the rest of the competition. We may think of these early builders of Appalachian Rifles as crusty old "hillbillies",  but in reality they were artists. If they weren't these guns would not have the appealling lines and architecture that makes them so beautiful. Artist like to express themselves and show off their talent.

[stuart cee dub]

   The mine- is- longer -than- your comb -makes sense as a form of one- ups-manship  Ken .
I love it .It speaks to so much of human nature.
   If they were wood carvers like the eastern gunsmiths well then it would be decorative carving.if they were master engravers it would be the quality of their scroll work .But as backwoods part time gunsmiths and more likely full time black smiths what one thing could you compete doing ?It is all about style and what they were good at forging iron .The fact that it has no practical use is the proof.

   As modern people with the internet our world is so much smaller ,we share pictures cross country in a flash but sometimes we ignore regional styles that exist even still . There is a small group of builder- shooters here where I live who play off of each others latest guns .One of us builds something, we handle it, shoot it think about doing it a little better and come up with the next minor evolution  .Definitely new school builders .
I never used to really believe in the idea of regional styles until I saw the dynamics of how it actually worked and saw it in action .
The great exchange seems to happen at specifically the local shooting matches during  show and tell .  

[G-Man]

One  more thing to keep in mind on the long tangs - I don't think they are longer just for the sake of showing they could make them longer, but rather are a visual feature that helps carry the eye along a smooth uninterrupted narrow line back from the barrel, along the top of the area behind the breech, down the wrist, and back to the narrow comb of the buttplate.  The ultimate expression of this are the ones that go all the way back to the buttplate.  There are some (Douglas) in Jerry Noble's book that acheived a similar effect by having the buttplate comb extend all the way forward to the nose of the comb. 

So you end up with an unbroken visual line from butt to nose on the rifle.  The features like the little concave areas alongside the tang behind the breech enhance this and help the lock and sideplate panels  to really stand out visually from this line.  This effect is demonstrated wonderfully by the fine rifle Chuck C. just built and has posted under "Gunbuilding" - look at the photo facing from the butt forward, more or less down the barrel - - this line pops out very clearly. 

Guy

[WElliott]

I think you are on to something, Guy.  It is an attractive aesthetic, visual feature.  The Douglas rifle with the buttplate heel extension which came all the way forward to cover the drop of the comb was in my collection for years, and I wish it still were. That rifle also had pointed extensions on the toe plate and the trigger guard which virtually met.  In all, the rifle was wrapped in iron - from the barrel, across the tang, the butt extension, the buttplate, the toe plate and then the guard ending in a pointed front extension- a very appealing look.  Maybe that is the aesthetic goal in the long tangs.

[Ian Pratt]

  If you think about it there's not much to support the idea of the long tang strengthening the wrist. You are essentially punching more holes in an already weakened area of the rifle. Compound this by the fact that many of these guns simply used wood screws to mount the breech tang rather than a through bolt into the trigger plate, and I bet if anything you are further weakening the wrist or breaking even at best.  In my opinion even the arrangement used on the Hawken rifles didn't really serve to strengthen the wrist as much as it held busted parts together until you could limp back to town and get it repaired.
  Back to the development of the style - Much of what you see in the iron work on these rifles comes right out of traditional blacksmithing forms. Take a look at the bold trigger guards that Wayne mentioned and compare the shape of the bow to old blacksmith made flat handled thumb latches. The flattened then curled spur that terminates the grip rail is a decorative feature that you find on anything from fire steels to boot scrapers to door bolts, very commonly used. The long tang quite similar to some of the long strap hinges. I have seen a couple less typical long tangs that were quite like miniature strap hinges in form, one went over the comb and terminated in a leaf / spearpoint shape like many of the hinges, another was tapered over it's full length and terminated with a diamond shaped end, again like many of the hinges. Many of these gunsmiths were blacksmiths, perhaps blacksmiths first, and the iron work was where they showed off their skill rather than with engraving and relief carving. As time went on I think the wildly long extensions etc. were just part of the usual progression of "one-upmanship".  
  

[chuck c.]

Ken,
I couldn't sleep last night so about 3: 00 AM I started reading my old Foxfire 5 book. I don't know how factual the information is, but it seems that most of it is obtained by interviewing the local old timers who are considered to be knowledgeable in a certain area. The section of the book I was reading credits the Bean family with being the originators of the over the comb tang and that it was done to strengthen that particular area. Like others, I don't think it accomplishes this, but it is possible that they thought it did.

[Carper]

Ken: My two cents are on the " what sells " reason for most of the features seen on late rifles. My folks were German blacksmiths turned gun maker around 1800. They could make a piece of iron stand up and beg.  I am suprised that we have not seen a tang twraps itself around the stock ! We see it all through the modern eyes of today. Today every child in America would  know the use of a popsicle stick while it would be unknown in the 1800's. I know in our family it was all about making cash money and the competition even here in the backwoods of south western virginia was intense. I think the long tang was to the rifle what fins were to cars in the 50's. Something different in a time of such plainness we cant even imagine. You dont have to look back very far in time at all here in the hills to see photos of old homesteads, barns, tack, clothing, to see how utilitarian it was. If every thing including your clothes that you considered personal could fit in a feed sack and you got the chance to have a rifle made up you would pay a little to be different and they did too.  Combine that with a maker who had pride in his skills and you have the "perfect storm "I was little bitty boy and one of the Honakers had bought back a rifle and brought to my Grandfather to "fix" I remember to this day how he held that rifle like it was baby. Time was just different. I thought that I had seen all concerning the Carper rifles was I wrong. About a month ago a man brought his family rifle a distance to show me. He said that his kin  traveled to out shop and bougth the gun just after the Civil war and  had it all this time.( except the color was gone from the barrel the rifle looked  great) I  noticed the word Enterprise- Pttsburg PA stamped on the top flat not from my GGrandfathers signature ! I can only imagine that for some reason( money or sell related) that  he left that on the barrel. These folks were southerners to tha end, must have needed the cash.   Johnny

[tom patton]

Some random thoughts on Tennessee rifles and the upper East Tennessee school in particular:

Robin Hale and I both independently reached the conclusion that one could not ignore the possibility that there were men forging iron mountings for the gunsmith trade. See his paper to the American  Society of Arms Collectors,1970 P.7,

  "Indeed thre marked similarity of lower assemblies,butt plates,and particularly triggerguards and double set trigger assemblies suggest that there were men who forged iron mountings for thr gunsmith trade in or near the iron -mining districts such as that at Bumpas Cove in Washington and Unicoi.Counties..."

I believe there was a flourishing trade in punched tin panels of varying design in Southwest Virginia which were then sold to cabinet makers in upper East Tennessee for inclusion in the  fine walnut and cherry pie safes for which that area was well known.With this practice in mind could not the blacksmith- gunsmith dichotomy be possible even probable.

On the banana boxes, I dug the two {yes,there were two guns in that house} Bogle rifles out of a house in Blount County and one had a banana box.Joseph Bogle the elder died very early in the 19th century and based on a document signed by him just prior to his death wherein his hand writing was extremely shaky I concluded that the second gun was very close to the earlier gun in time of origin.I felt that the first Bogle gun dated 1790-1800 +/_ and  that the banana box on the second gun was possibly the earliest banana box I had seen giving credence to the theory that such boxes originated in Southwest Virginia.in the late 18th century.I have long thought that the earlier Bogle rifle and probably the later one were made in Southwest Virginia rather than East Tennessee,There are two rifles extant of which I am aware that are markedly similar in architecture and the two piece box on the first Bogle and one other which bears more than a passing resemblance. I firmly believe that the Bogle rifles and these others constitute a school of guns in Southwest Virginia  not Tennessee.See also the two piece box on the John Davidson rifle probably from Virginia.

On the subject of barrel markigs on Tennessee guns,Robin and I once saw on three occasions the same gun .It was a typical early 19th century iron mounted Southwest Virginia rifle with about a 48" barrel.We saw the gun three times and while I don't remember the sequence I do remember that barrel .On one occasion the gun had no markings and on two occasions it had a different Bean name in a silver plate. I haven't seen that gun in many years but I think I would know it if I saw it.I have often wondered how many Bean rifles are ALL original.I sold a nice iron mounted rifle a few years back and had resisted earlier offers from a well known East Tennessee dealer/collector. Except for the lack of double thimble pins it had virtually all the supposed Bean features. It had no box or signature and the original  percussion lock plate was an unpierced flint plate. I knew if I sold it back then the next time it would have a flint lock,banana box and a silver barrel  plate signed probably JAMES BEAN copied from Finks old article and picture.

I liked the Tennessee guns but their rather boring similarity and ease of faking began to turn me off.
Just some thoughts of random heresy
Tom Patton

[WElliott]

Tom, with all due respect, I remind you that the earliest record found in Tennessee for Joseph Bogle (Jr.), was his marriage bond, dated January 1786 and found in the Greene County records.  According to the records, Jos. was married in what is now Green County, Tennessee, on January 3, 1786 to Margaret (Peggy) Houston, the daughter of Sam Houston.  That date would be consistent with the arrival of the McTeer family in Tennessee.  The Bogles and McTeers were, as you know, neighbors in Pennsylvania, then Virginia and then in Tennessee.  The McTeers and the Bogles attended church together at Eusebia Presbyterian Church, which was established in 1786 just one and one-half miles north of McTeers Fort, which was established about 1784. 

Since the gunsmith Joseph Bogle (Jr.)  appears to have arrived in Tennessee in the 1784-85 time frame, the earlier rifle bearing his signature, which you rescued and brought to light, was most likely made after he was in Tennessee, unless the rifle can be dated prior to 1785.

[tom patton]

Wayne, I stand corrected on the marriage of Joseph Bogle the elder.to Margaret Houston.Not having my notes on the Bogles I got my dates confused. I had always dated that first rifle about 1790 based largely on the bright cut engraving on the outer edges of the barrel plate and the similarity of the gun to those Southwest Virginia guns.. This type of engraving is usually associated with Federal silver smiths such as Revere and others.The signature on the first rifle is "Jos" Bogle a style of lettering not usually found on Tennessee guns.We didn't know that the second Bogle gun ,the one with the banana box was signed until Allen Gutchess found it in the restoration process.I do feel that there is a connection  between the other Virginia guns of that school from Southwest Virginia and the Bogle guns by Joseph the elder. Incidentally I had a client with a nice Tennessee rifle signed "A B " in script and with the same lower forestock molding as is found on the Bogle and Kellar rifles.I was unable to ascertain its maker and I guess I should go back and make an offer on it.It came out of the lower Blount County area as I recall but I couldn't tie those initials to any one of the Bogle family.
Tom Patton

[WElliott]

Tom, there is no doubt about the SW Virginia influence.  In fact, I think Jos. Bogle may have worked under, or with, a Rockbridge Co., VA gunsmith prior to moving to Tennessee.  But he made the gun we know in Tennessee.

Please do buy the A.B. gun and share it with us.  : )

[tom patton]

Wayne, I never did find much on the shop of Joseph Bogle the elder the younger being his nephew Joseph who probably made the Bogle/Bull gun. I lost interest in the family when I sold the gun to Robin and not long afterwards I lost interest in Tennessee guns in general.The "A B " gun is a plain walnut{?}full stocked original percussion  gun with no box but signed in script with good architecture and nice lower molding on the forestock.My client is deceased but I think I know how to contact his daughter.Who knows? Maybe I can get it.
Tom Patton

[G-Man]

Tom and Wayne - this is really interesting as it involves two of my favorite gunmakers and have a couple of questions.

I was wondering - In Jerry Noble's Volume 3 he shows two guns attributed to Joseph Bogle (pages 101 and 102) - these are both different guns from the famous one, that appears to be the earliest.

Page 101 shows one with a banana box, and a very simple one-screw sideplate - is this the one that Tom is referring to?

Page 102 shows one with similar, but slightly different, architecture - a more compact wrist, however a very similar guard, triggers and patchbox to the well known Bogle rifle.  There is no view of the cheek side of the gun.  Is this one also believed to be by the same maker, or the nephew?

Finally, the Bogle/Bull rifle - I always assumed from the pictures that it is brass mounted.  Is this correct? It has a captured lid patchbox, which John used variations on several rifles.   Is the assumption that this is perhaps a very early set of hardware by John Bull before he really got settled into his own distinctive style of mounts he was making in Tennessee by around 1820? 

Thanks!

Guy

[WElliott]

Guy,
I wish I could answer that.  I'm not sure about the certain attribution given to the rifle on page 101.  The rifle pictured on page 102 does have more features (the box, guard, triggers and lower buttstock molding) that suggest the elder Jos. Bogle.  However, if the nephew Joseph learned from uncle Jos., it may be difficult to tell.  In looking at the rifles, I would remember that the elder Jos. died in 1811.