Author Topic: European Matchlock Pistol  (Read 11552 times)

Mosquetero

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European Matchlock Pistol
« on: July 01, 2010, 03:03:57 PM »
Dear All,

I am new on the forum and come here to ask for help. I am looking for information about European Matchlock Pistols.

So far I have a book written by Mr. MC Crory who wrote that a European Matchlock pistol was used by German Cavalry to practise shooting for training in battle they used the wheellock.

Wheellock was very expensive, so they kept it for battle and for training the matchlock.

Can you confirm that? Do you have any other information as regards to European matchlocks?

Best regards,


Levy

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 06:11:45 PM »
I've worked on quite a few matchlocks recovered from shipwrecks that dated from the 1600's and early 1700's here in Florida.  I've never seen a matchlock pistol though I understand they do exist.  I ride horses and can only imagine the difficulties of operating (reloading) a matchlock of any type while on board.  I've built a couple of matchlock arquebuses for the Mission San Luis here in Tallahassee, FL.  I have seen originals from shipwrecks in 3 sizes; wallgun (.90's), musket (.80's), arquebus (.60's).

James Levy

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 08:04:11 PM »
Thank you James! But as far as I know the matchlock pistol reached Japan, where Samurais took it as a weapon.

The ones who brought that gun to Japan were the Portuguese sailors, so there would be some matchlock pistols in Europe.


Offline Stophel

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 08:47:14 PM »
Other than the aforementioned Japanese examples, I have yet to see a matchlock pistol (and can't imagine how it would be advantageous to use one for training  ??? ). I HAVE seen what is probably the most useless firearm ever...a match pistol.  NOT a matchlock pistol, but a match pistol.  You just held the match in your hand and touched it to the flash pan!  The thing even had a triggerguard...but no trigger.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:48:13 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 10:48:21 PM »
Stophel,

What do you think about this? http://www.alderneywreck.com/?page_id=136 Where there is a report about something which would be a matchlock pistol.

Besides if someone can shot with a weapon like it appears on page 58, riding a horse http://www.scribd.com/doc/27062968/The-Gun-and-Its-Development-1899, if someone designs a stock for it, it would a great improvement.

Besides, the training story was told to me for an old gun collectionist, who told me that the german cavalry uses a matchlock pistol with similar features (sizes and weight mainly, and sometimes a fake wheel) to get used of shooting, avoiding the waste on Wheellock pistols.


Offline Stophel

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 11:30:15 PM »
I couldn't see any pistol reference on the Alderney wreck page (other than mentioning an "English lock pistol", which is a form of flintlock).

I'm sure that some existed, but I can imagine that they would be very, very few, as such an arm would not exactly be very useful.  

I still can't see a matchlock pistol being used for training in lieu of a wheel lock.  The method of operation is SO different, it would be like using an Atlatl to train for using a crossbow.  OK, maybe not, but still they're very different.

I would have to actually see one or see some actual period reference to doing so.   ;)

And firing a match handgonne while riding a galloping horse would be an exemplary feat of horsemanship and manual dexterity!!!  Perhaps a bit apocryphal...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:37:14 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 01:36:34 AM »
There are no known European matchlock pistols and no evidence that they ever existed. The fact that the Japanese made them is no proof that they were used in Europe. The Japanese weren't fools... they recognized how the matchlock worked and their uses for them were almost certainly different than in Europe. If I am not mistaken, at the time the matchlock arrived in Japan there were almost no horses, and hence, no cavalry. The horses had been wiped out in a terrible epidemic - which is why most of the early japanese swords made for mounted use were cut down.

The pistol was strictly a weapon of European Cavalry and the matchlock is singularly unsuitable for use on horseback. I strongly suspect that the reproduction matchlock pistol that is sometimes seen is a fantasy weapon... In that case I agree with Stophel. Accurate shooting was hardly even considered at that time, much less training. The 30 Years War technique for using pistols mounted precludes matchlocks. Essentially, each cavalryman carried two wheelocks. They were intended to ride up to point blank range, fire their pistols and wheel around. Well drilled troops could follow each other, essentially keeping up a steady and extremely ineffective fire. Gustavus Adolphus treated this tactic with contempt. He simply ignored the pistols charged such cavalry with sabers...

Without any surviving examples and not even a period illustration showing one, I see no reason to believe they ever existed. Which isn't to say that someone, somewhere may have made one... they certainly may have but thats like saying that breech loading wheelocks were common based on the example from Henry VIII's collection. Saying that something existed because it could have, when there is no compelling evidence that it did, is not very good history.

Having said all that, the nearest thing to a European matchlock pistol known are the so-called pistol-shields which also date from the reign of Henry VIII. These have been listed in Tower inventories since at least the early 18th century and half a dozen of them are still in the Royal Armouries. No one has any idea if they were ever used for anything and they may just be one of the thousands of goofy inventions that have littered firearms history since the beginning.

Its also possible that someone has confused a petronel with a pistol... a petronel has a very short, pistol like stock that was intended to be held against the center of the chest when firing. These date from the mid 16th century and were made in both matchlock and wheelock versions. It is probably a French word and its meaning in French is fairly clear. However, the word was also sometimes used in English (incorrectly) for a pistol... much like "fuzee" or "fusil" which in French or Italian is simply a gun while in English it came to signify (1st) a flintlock as opposed to a matchlock and later a light flintlock musket.

I'm not sure which illustration from Greener you are referring to. He illustrates both the pistol shields mentioned above and an Indian matchlock pistol. I only have the 1896 and 1910 Editions.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 03:54:14 AM by JV Puleo »

dannybb55

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 02:20:37 PM »
There is one Brecian matchlock pistol in the collection of the North Carolina Museum of History at Raleigh, NC. This is a well made and neatly decorated pistol that probably predates the 30 Years War. Give them a call 919.733.8655.

dannybb55

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2010, 02:25:19 PM »
Mr Levy, Would you be able to link us to any sight reports and artifact sketches from the shipwrecks? I have been curious about the locks that were found, they do not have the same profile as the ones from TRS.
                                  Danny

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2010, 07:38:18 PM »
Dear DannyBB55,

Thank you for your great data, I will get in touch with the museum and let you know.

Best regards,

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2010, 09:32:39 PM »
Danny,

Thanks again, here you have a example of European match lock pistol

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfpcgi.exe?IDCFile=/moh/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=43336,DATABASE=45479078,


Best regards,


Offline Stophel

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 09:49:27 PM »
Very neat.  Has a rather Mediterranean look to it (Italian?)

That's one.   ;D
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Levy

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2010, 09:51:12 PM »
Danny:

The difference between what is usually found on the shipwrecks and the TRS matchlock mechanisms is the location of the tiller return spring on the inside of the lock.  The TRS lock has the spring located below the sear bar pushing up forward of the pivot screw and the shipwreck locks have it located above the sear bar pushing down behind the pivot screw.  I hope that makes some sense.  The travel of the serpentine on the shipwreck locks is set by the maker and the travel of the serpentine on the TRS locks is adjustable by set screw.  I emailed you a large file giving some deminsions.

James Levy

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2010, 10:09:07 PM »
Interesting picture. I remain very skeptical of it. The metal work doesn't look to be anywhere near up to the standards of Brescia and the combination of decorated metal work with a utterly plain and fairly crude stock is unlikely at best. From about 1850 to WWI there was a huge market in Europe for decorated arms and armour in antique styles. There were several major suppliers, the best known of which is probably Ernst Schmidt of Munich but there was also G. Pigeon in Paris. They turned out so much spurious material that it continues to plague the arms and armour world to this day. At the risk of sounding like an elitist, there are very few collectors in America who have seen enough of the good material to be able to distinguish it from the bad stuff - and some of the bad stuff was extremely good. This isn't one of the good ones - which would be indistinguishable from a photograph but it has anomalies that should raise a red flag.



dannybb55

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2010, 01:56:56 PM »
Take it up with the curator. A better museum to check would be the New Mexico Museum of History. Their collection starts with crossbows.

Offline Stophel

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 10:05:30 PM »
I have little doubt that there are SOME matchlock pistols here and there, but we're not exactly awash with them.  Wheel lock pistols, on the other hand, are very easy to find.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2010, 05:49:58 PM »
Obviously we are not awash of matchlock, but we do not have to be so stuborn to avoid (or worst to forget) that they could be used for practising shooting.

It is likely that it was not the most weapon used in battle as muskets or wheellock pistols, but they have their own piece of History, which it would be really nice to discover in our culture.

Besides, Japanese does not create the matchlock gun, they took it from Portugueses...


Offline JCKelly

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2010, 08:48:40 PM »
Dunno about pistols, but those who shoot matchlocks today don't find them quite so impractical as many think. I built one some years ago. All the hairy guys w buckskins & 'hawks laughed at me, "will thet thang go off?" Never shot better at one of those Michigan canoe shoots. Could hit a gourd floating down river w the best of 'em.  And on the firing line I heard a lot of "clicks" from the firelock guys. But not me. When ever there is a combination of a burning match, and black gunpowder, one is pretty much guaranteed that some manner of explosion will occur, somewhere.
God was patient with me and permitted me to survive the experience. So I sold the gun & went back to firelocks. Have talked to others who claim to hunt geese with theirs.
In the early 1600's Jamestown indians sure liked to get ahold of those matchlock muskets for hunting, much preferred over their bows & arrows. Archers take note!   

Mosquetero

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Re: European Matchlock Pistol
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 06:54:33 PM »
As I started this topic, I told that someone told me that German Cavalry used to use matchlock pistols to practise shooting in order to keep the wheelock ones for battle.

Appart of that "tale", which a friend told that he has read it on a book written by a Italian man, many people says that using a matchlock pistols is not proper for cavalry (I agree with that) but if you consider that someone shoot with some of this in battle



From

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27062968/The-Gun-and-Its-Development-1899


A matchlock gun would be a little easier to shoot.

I am not focusing on battle field for a matchlock pistol, I am interested on their existance. No one is focusing on the training on an army or shooting as a sport.


Besides, I found this text on Google Books

http://books.google.com.ar/books?id=GmQVan-M3ykC&pg=PA134&dq=matchlock+pistol%2Bflandes&hl=es&ei=iRZXTOO7CYGC8gbO0bioAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=matchlock%20gun&f=false


Where there is an interesting statement:

Quote:
"It is true that the cavalry found a need for the wheel-lock to be applied to their pistols and carbines because of the difficulty of handling the matchlock mounted"


So I wonder: Before wheel - lock what kind of system did these gentlemen use?

In the other hand, Portuguese people who got in touch with Japaneses and brought gun powder power to that land, as far as I know they took with them obsolete matchlock pistols and Japaneses copied them.

So in somewhere in Portugal may be a specimen of those antique guns.

My aim is to clarify the matter about western matchlock pistols, to give the little piece of History they deserve, not changing any sport rule of nowadays.