Left Hand Lock on Right Hand Rifle

[SPG]

Gentlemen,
I've always been interested in the longrifle on page 114 of Kindigs book...made by John Fondersmith for a right-handed shooter but using a left-handed lock. Kindig says simply that Fondersmith must have had a left-handed lock that he wanted to use and that the customer probably didn't mind. I'm not buying that one. Seems a little strange to think that someone paying for an obviously expensive rifle would choose to save money that way.

I prefer to think that there was a perceived advantage to having the touch hole on the left as versus the right...no flash by the right eye or something along those lines. This is not the only rifle set up this way...and frankly, it has me thinking about building one like it to see if there's anything to the theory.

Your thoughts?

Steve 

[Steve Bookout]

SPG, I question the validity of the idea that it might have been a left over lock as there are far too many originals out there with that same idiosyncrasy.  Cheers, Bookie

[Benedict]

Steve,
To test your idea about the flash why don't you try shooting your right handed rifle left handed?  That way you can see if the flash bothers you more or less.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Bruce

[SPG]

Bookie,

As a purveyor of fine iron mounted rifles, have you seen original chunk rifles set up this way? And...have you seen any side-slappers on the left side. Seems if the idea would hold for a flintlock it would work on a side-slapper.

One thing that I don't think that we modern shooters give enough allowance to is how important, from both a social and monetary standpoint, the old time rifle matches were...and the lengths that many riflemen went to in order to gain success. I'm taking of both early "tavern" matches and the later "over the log" matches. I think this rifle is an example of an early-day rifleman "thinking out of the box" and special ordering a rifle.

Bruce,

Good idea...although shooting left handed may alter my perception, somewhat. Besides, if there was no perceived advantage I would have just talked myself out of a perfectly good reason for another rifle.

Steve

[Benedict]

Steve,
Who needs a reason for another rifle? Perfectly good or otherwise.

Bruce

[Acer Saccharum]

If you have a big nose, you can hide behind it while you shoot and never see the flash.

[northmn]

I build and shoot left handed rifles and would not prefer a right handed one.  There would be no advantage to a left hand lock on a right hand rifle.  while I ahve shot right hand flintlocks as in a Brown Bess and it really does not bother that much, I still prefer the lock on the appropriate side.  There is also the issue of hot stuff be it caps or powder falling down on your arm in short sleeved shirts.  Also shooting a right hand rifle into the wind is not as much fun as it can blow $#@* back in your face  even with safety glasses.  I challenge you to resell the rifle if you don't like it.

DP

[Dan'l 1946]

If you have a big nose, you can hide behind it while you shoot and never see the flash.

Could it have something to do with which eye was dominant?  Dan

[BrownBear]

Kindig says simply that Fondersmith must have had a left-handed lock that he wanted to use and that the customer probably didn't mind. I'm not buying that one. Seems a little strange to think that someone paying for an obviously expensive rifle would choose to save money that way.

Speaking as a lefty who couldn't always get a bolt action for the guns I wanted, I have several left handed stocks with right handed bolts.  And I have to observe that the cheek piece is pretty useless on all the right handed guns I own and shoot left handed.  As a matter of fact, I have a GRRW Hawken built with a left handed stock and a right handed lock.  Talking to the GRRW smith that built it, they didn't have a lefty lock at the time and the person who ordered it didn't want to wait until they could come up with one.  

Speaking from the practical side, there are a whole lot of reasons not to use a left handed lock on a right handed rifle!  Shooting a right handed flintlock left handed and right handed caplocks with drum bolsters left handed comes at a price.  I've been showered in the face and forearm with flint chards when something goes wrong, and using the drum bolster without a flash guard is a guarantee of flaming debris down the cuff of my forearm.  

I'm not as experienced as many others, but I haven't found a single reason to order a gun with a right handed lock if a lefty lock was available.  But it's not hard to imagine some.  What about the cast-off on the stock?  Is it extreme, as if intended for a right handed shooter to get the line of sight over in front of a dominant left eye?  Could the owner have a disability that made it impossible to cock the gun right handed?  It would be really interesting to see the rifle firsthand to measure castoff, as well as to watch people with a range of statures and even disabilities handle it.  I had a cousin who mangled and permanently disabled his left hand, yet insisted on continuing to shoot his beloved pump shotgun.  Kinda funny looking, but he became blazing fast dismounting the shotgun after a shot, slapping the butt down against his raised thigh to eject the spent shell, then snapping the gun forward sharply to cycle the action closed before remounting for the next shot.  All his left hand did was provide a rest for the forend while shooting.

[northmn]

I bought a 16ga OU that I liked but it had been "cast off" for a right handed shooter.  To get it to mount correctly I steamed the stocks and did a little rasping.  While it now looks a little different it points where it should.  As to cheek pieces, I agree that the way they were scooped out on original rifles they did not have a function.  A mistake I used to make on builds as I made mine functional.  There were very few original left handed rifles built so I imagine that the left handed lock would be something to get rid of.  They did make a few mirror image pistol pairs whcih the lock may have fit.  There was some religious resistance to left handedness back then in some denominations.  It was not that long ago that they tied up left hands to get children to learn to write right handed.

DP

[Steve Bookout]

Hiram, to answer your question in a nutshell, NO, I have never personally seen (or a photograph of) an original chunk or side hammered gun set up that way.  Common sporting rifles, yes, but not on target rifles.  But like Bruce said, why do you need a reason when you want to buy another gun?     Cheers, Bookie

[SPG]

Brother Bookout,

At the risk of being called a flinty-eyed competitor...when I see something like this vintage rifle I wonder what the old boy who ordered it had in his mind. I really like the old "blood match rifles"...especially the Zorgers and the heavy Klinedinst in Kindigs book...and we wouldn't be where we are today if the old shooters hadn't experimented and tried different ideas.

You are right...I don't need much of an excuse for a new rifle...the sun coming up in the East is plenty. I have to admit...the psychological value of the Fondersmith rifle might be considerable. You know what a spooky lot most shooters are. I think it was in "Gun Makers of Illinois" where the author mentioned a shooter named Dillow who was not allowed to shoot for turkeys or beef even though he was an expert marksman as he was believed to be "allied with witches and in communication with the powers of darkness." Hence, we have hex signs on long rifles. Sounds to me like his neighbors were sore losers.

I bet that darn Dillow had a right/left-handed rifle! (At least that's how stories get made.)

Steve

[Pete G.]

Steve,
To test your idea about the flash why don't you try shooting your right handed rifle left handed?  That way you can see if the flash bothers you more or less.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Bruce

If I tried to shoot left handed the flash would be the least of things bothering me.

[Luke MacGillie]

If you have a big nose, you can hide behind it while you shoot and never see the flash.

Could it have something to do with which eye was dominant?  Dan

Someone who's Dad didnt realize that they were RH and LED, and didnt make them spend the summer between 5th and 6th Grade wearing an eye patch to atrophy the eye muscle!

[Steve Bookout]

Hiram, have you examined any of the originals that had a cheek piece on BOTH sides of the stock?  Seems to me that here you cold have a little more to play with.  Knowing how you like to X-peeriment (some might call it suicidal tendencies on occasion ) this might be more to your liking.  You getting any emails from me yet?
Cheers, Bookie

[Dale Campbell]

Kindig says simply that Fondersmith must have had a left-handed lock that he wanted to use and that the customer probably didn't mind. I'm not buying that one. Seems a little strange to think that someone paying for an obviously expensive rifle would choose to save money that way.

 Could the owner have a disability that made it impossible to cock the gun right handed?  It would be really interesting to see the rifle firsthand to measure castoff, as well as to watch people with a range of statures and even disabilities handle it.  I had a cousin who mangled and permanently disabled his left hand, yet insisted on continuing to shoot his beloved pump shotgun.  Kinda funny looking, but he became blazing fast dismounting the shotgun after a shot, slapping the butt down against his raised thigh to eject the spent shell, then snapping the gun forward sharply to cycle the action closed before remounting for the next shot.  All his left hand did was provide a rest for the forend while shooting.

I think BrownBear might be closer to the truth than anything else put forward yet.  Fondersmith was good.  LH locks weren't common, and RH locks were (relatively), so why use it unless it was really needed? A RH lock makes the rifle more marketable in the long run (even today, as the on-going discussion highlights). If Fondersmith needed a RH lock he could have the apprentice/journeyman knock one out, or do it himself.   But a  man with a particular disability and the money to pay, might want or need the LH lock in a RH configuration, and so have that one of a kind rifle.  That we're all scratching our heads over.

[Jim Thomas]

There is an ease of operation factor when the lock is to the outside as it is carried....cradled.    Only a guess,  but it's possible the person this was built for was left handed but had a vision problem requiring the rifle to be shot right handed.     

I'm left handed and have a rifle I built using a right handed lock.   The natural desire to cradle the rifle in my right arm makes the lock location a tad awkward.         

[bama]

How bout our shotgunners on this site. Anybody with a side by side flinter want to give a view as to weather the left lock gives you any trouble.

[BrownBear]

How bout our shotgunners on this site. Anybody with a side by side flinter want to give a view as to weather the left lock gives you any trouble.

Not a flinter, but 20 years shooting a capper double gives me some insights, at least for my style of shooting.  I always cocked the left side first as I raised the gun.  Second shot, reaching across the gun for the hammer, forced me to drop the butt from my shoulder a bit.  And I have big hands and long arms (I'm 6'4").  It would have been easier to cock the right barrel first as I raised the gun, allowing me to cock and fire the left barrel without dropping it from my shoulder, but darned if I could form the habit even though both bores were cylinder.

My lefty GRRW Hawken with the right-handed lock, it's no sweat to cock as I raise the rifle, but if it's not cocked as I shoulder it, darned if I don't have to drop the butt off my shoulder to do it.

[northmn]

I mentioned before, as a left handed shooter I shot right handed flintlocks including a Brown Bess.  It is just plain more convenient to make a left handed rifle.  While I ahve considered making a right handed rifle for easier marketing should I wish to sell it I definitely would not make a half a--ed rfile with a left hand stock and a right hand lock, it would be totally right handed.  One reason the Fondersmith rifle survived is probably that no one wanted to shoot it.  There were some religous stigmas associated with left handedness at one time so that a lefty may have not wanted his rifle to appear totaly left handed.

DP

[Dale Campbell]

Pure speculation - take this as thought material only!

What if the purchaser had grown up right-handed, and lost part or all of his right hand, or control of it.  He has the money to have a rifle built as he wishes.  This configuration allows him to more easily cock with his left hand.  All he needs to do is touch it off with whatever control he has on his right side.

I don't have access to Kindig. Does this rifle have set triggers?  Has anyone handled it and noticed odd wear on the trigger or trigger guard?

[SPG]

Dale,

As the gun sits now it has what appears to be only the front trigger from a set trigger combination. Removed? Broken?

From the picture, wear but no abuse and nothing unusual. The lock appears to be good quality, double throated, roller on frizzen spring, waterproof pan...not cheap. Also unusual, a 36-inch barrel which is now 60 caliber smooth. I bet it wasn't smooth when it was new...and that's a comparatively short barrel for the time. Overall, the rifle is very nice and doesn't appear to me to be something assembled for a collection of odd parts. I'm still thinkin' that whoever ordered it had some pretty definite ideas on what he wanted for his rifle. We'll never really know but it is something to speculate on. Mentioned the rifle to Don King and he said he had seen several original rifles set up this way.

Brother Bookie,

Yep...got two e-mails, which is good for this neck of the woods. Has it been hot in Iowa?

Steve