18th Century Straight Barrels - a question??

[Chuck Burrows]

The subject has come up elsewhere and....Is there any positive evidence - i.e. existing examples or written doumentation - for straight barreled aka non-swamped American long rifles pre-1800 and pre-1780 in particular?

[Don Getz]

Chuck.......those barrels being made before 1800 were hand forged and a straight sided barrel would actually be more
difficult to make than a swamped barrel.   In pounding out a swamped barrel they did not have to be so much concerned
about the exact dimensions at a particular spot on the barrel, they just made a barrel that "looked" right.  On the other
hand, If they wanted to make a straight sided barrel, would have to forge and measure, forge and measure, the whole
way down the barrel.    Then when they were finished they had a heavy, clumsy barrel....maybe OK for a target gun, but
I don't ever recall seeing an early target rifle...................Don

[dannybb55]

Making a straight barrel is no more difficult than making a straight board or square edges. The mark of a good craftsman has always been tight joints, straight lines and square edges. A vice, some files and a straight edge is all that is needed. First you file one side flat and square to the bore, then you work the other side true to the first. Next the perpendicular faces and then the diagonals. If you want to see hard work for a gunsmith look at a Long Land barrel, long, thin, tapered and round. If you want a board to be straight you start with a scrub plane, then a jack, then a smooth. To get a straight edge use a jack or fillister and then a fine set Jointer, always check your work with a try square. It is the same with white smithing. Start with a rough file, then a bastard then a smooth, then a fine mill file to draw file the faces bright. If you are not careful you will get a swamped barrel. If you are good or patient you will get a true straight barrel or close enough. Steam engines were being built in the 18th century, a straight barrel was within these boys' capabilities.

[Chuck Burrows]

I moved this in hopes of more responses......
I appreciate the input so far, but what I am seeking an answer to is simply this and nothing else:
are there any known and/or existing pre-1800 and pre-1780 in particular straight barreled - not swamped or tapered - rifles or primary documentation for such straight barreled rifles?
(I understand the why's, etc. and know what was most common......)

[Don Getz]

Chuck..........don't know of any.    Seem like every gun you look at made before the early 1800's had swamped barrels,
going all the way back to the beginning..............Don

[rich pierce]

I think the censensus is "nope, no straight barrels before 1800".  Some tapers and flares are subtle, but there, on pre-1800 barrels.

Danny, for sure straight barrels were within the capabilities.  But there was no incentive or reason to make straight barrels as straight barrels offer no advantages and some disadvantages.  For the same weight barrel, the breech can be thicker if the barrel is swamped, and that is important with a hand forged barrel, for safety reasons.  Plus, of course, the balance of a swamped barrel is better.  The front and rear sights can be of similar height, meaning the rear sight does not need to be tall and awkward right where the hand tends to hold the gun.

Many assume (and I know no other reason) that later on, when the bulk of work on the exterior of a barrel was being done with machines, not men with files, it was more efficient to make barrels straight sided.  It sure is easier to set up on a milling machine, else straight barrels and swamped barrels would probably cost the same even today.

[flintriflesmith]

I have never seen a pre-1780 ALR with a straight (parallel sided barrel). Even the huge wall rifles made to be used from fort walls -- which are about as close as you might get to a Rev War era target rifle-- had tapered and flared barrels.

Published information about some early 19th-century rifles that describe their barrels a parallel sided is also wrong. The authors didn't measure carefully enough to see the slight taper and flare popular in the late flint and early percussion period.

Gary

[T*O*F]

The ignorant but logical question:

When barrels are forged, they are done in barrel anvils which have a variety of different sized cut-outs.  Forging a barrel using one of them would result in a straight barrel the same diamete for its length.  To make a swamped barrel, one would have to use a variety of different cut-outs to achieve the varying diameters.  What am I missing here?

[heinz]

Most barrels were forged free hand, not using a swage blok.  The swage block is not useful when welding.

[flintriflesmith]

Most barrels were forged free hand, not using a swage blok.  The swage block is not useful when welding.

Can't agree with that. Welding a barrel is almost always done in a swage block. See the pictures on this web page: http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/barrel_making.htm

On the other hand forging the welded tube from round to octagon is done on the flat of the anvil--first with a hand hammer and then a flatter and sledge. The round or square shape of a swage block would be on no use in creating the octagon and that is when the refinment of the taper and flare take place. The beginning of the taper & flare is when the skelp is tapered in thickness BEFORE the welding begins.
Gary

[chris laubach]

Most barrels were forged free hand, not using a swage blok.  The swage block is not useful when welding.

I think you are wrong on this one.

Here is short clip from one of our demonstrations:




Chris Laubach

[tallbear]

Something to keep in mind when discussing the process of making a barrel straight as opposed to tapered and flaired(Gary and Chris correct me if I'm wrong)The barrel is made tapered by making the scelp tapered before it is forged round.The flaired portion is made by upsetting at the muzzle end after the tube is formed.Therefore the taper and flair is by design before the welding process and not a result of the octagoning in the swage block.

Mitch

[smshea]

I dont know Chris, I clicked on your youtube link and all I get is some guys in Drag. Unless those Bikinni tops say Williamsburg Forge , im thinking Im getting the wrong link.  

[dannybb55]

I think they are the Anderson Forge cheerleading squad

[J.D.]

Most barrels were forged free hand, not using a swage blok.  The swage block is not useful when welding.

Actually, the two points of the barrel in contact with the "V" of the swage block keeps the tube from collapsing during welding.

God bless

[chris laubach]

Scott, thanks. Link fixed!

Mitch you are correct.

J.D. the mandrel that is inserted is what keeps it from collapsing.
The "U" part of the swage block is what is used.










Chris Laubach

[flintriflesmith]

Swage blocks I have seen illustrated in period prints and those I have used myself in barrel welding are a U shape, not a V.

I recommend the American Pioneer Video of Jon and Chris Laubach forging a rifle barrel. http://www.americanpioneervideo.com/

$29.95 plus $5 shipping
One hour and twenty-five minutes of how to hand forge a wrought iron gun barrel tube on a coal-fired forge.  Jon Laubach, assisted by his son, Christopher Laubach and, Mike Miller, teaches the art and craft of this skill common to 18th century gunsmiths.
This is the first part of making a rifle barrel in traditional manner.  From shaping the wrought iron skelp, to annealing the octagon tube, Jon demonstrates in close detail how to produce a 45" long tapered and flared octagon tube.  Bonus material on forging a breechplug and on making the traditional boring bits.


The video was made at Jon's home shop so the forge is not 18th-century but the techniques he uses are documented and will answer a lot of questions and clear up a lot of somewhat mistaken information that seems to be out there.

Gary

[J.D.]

Chris, yes, a solid mandrel does support the barrel. Had a senior moment there. 

Though I am too fat, old an out of shape to weld a barrel, the smith I have most often seen demonstrate forging barrels doesn't like using a mandrel, because they tend to stick in the bore, so in this case, the V allows the skelp to be welded without collapsing the bore.

Bob prefers to forge the skelp around a 3/8 or 1/2" dia steel tube, instead of the mandrel.  The tube is drilled out during drilling and reaming, so nothing remains of the tube once the bore is prepared.

Bob is an accomplished smith who briefly tried to forge barrels commercially, back in the 1970s, I think. Since he was interested in production instead of historical accuracy he modified the process by eliminating the mandrel and using the V to support the barrel during welding, among other things. In this case, without the solid mandrel, using the V does keep the bore from collapsing.

 Bob's attempt at forging barrels commercially failed, in part, because a vast majority of ML shooters tend to be too cheap to buy a forge barrel. Not to mention that no commercial barrel maker would drill  his blanks. It seems that the barrel makers would only drill solid stock, as opposed to a relatively large dia barrel with a small dia hole, which added a complication that he could not overcome without a significant outlay of cash.


I have also watched him forge a pattern welded pistol barrel that came out real nice. Real, real nice.

God bless

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

OK so I was reading this site: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1689284/tips_for_rifling_a_kentucky_rifle_barrel.html?cat=15

Jon Carter says: "The flat wrought iron was forged around a mandrel that was withdrawn from the barrel as it was being forged so the mandrel wouldn't become stuck in the barrel. The gunsmith would have to straighten the barrel after he had converted it from wrought iron to steel. The conversion to steel was actually accomplished by placing the barrel into a clay box along with charcoal and allowed to stay sealed in a red hot furnace for a week. This was called the "Cementation Process" that allowed the wrought iron to absorb enough carbon from the charcoal to change to steel."

Is this true??      I am not sure of the rest of his article either???

[flintriflesmith]

OK so I was reading this site: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1689284/tips_for_rifling_a_kentucky_rifle_barrel.html?cat=15
Is this true??      I am not sure of the rest of his article either???

Is this true? No! The cementation process was used to make blister steel and has nothing to do with gun barrel making.

I am not sure of the rest of his article either??? I'm sure! Its about the bigest pile of b### #### I've seen in one place.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Good to know folks you can check things out with eh??

[dannybb55]

That's is a skill that I would like to master, even if it is just a pocket pistol barrel the first time.

[jwh1947]

Hey, Don...Dannydb55 set you straight.  If you had known 55 years ago how simple it was, perhaps you would have become one of America's premier custom barrel makers.