Author Topic: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added  (Read 19111 times)

Offline Majorjoel

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Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« on: July 08, 2010, 06:10:44 PM »
I have an opportunity to buy (what the seller claims to be original) a classic F&I war map horn. I have owned several old original plain powder horns over the years and with them originality has not been too hard to discern. Of coarse the cost factors for the plain ones is a fairly straight line with the contemporary. On the map horn, all I have so far are pictures. Will be putting my hands on it in a day or so.  What should I be looking for to make a determination on this horns originality? Are there any good ways to spot fake patination? I have done business with this seller before and have been very happy with other purchases. I have also had a few opportunities in the past to see and handle several GOOD old horns. I just never thought those experiences would be put to the test!  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:11:05 PM by Captjoel »
Joel Hall

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 09:35:55 PM »
I wish I knew a full proof way.  One thing that I notice is that makers who age horns tend to over do it.  If it looks old, good, if it looks really old it might be overkill.  Also, take all the elements into account, the engraving, the spout, the patina and the wooden plug.  does any of it seem out of place.  An old looking horn shouldn't have a new looking plug.  All of it should show some wear.  Other than that just see if you get a feel about it, I have noticed the original horns that I have held feel different.  I have oftenwondered if it is becuase they have no moisture content left. 
Good luck

Coryjoe

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2010, 10:05:02 PM »
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:46:20 PM by Tim Crosby »
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2010, 10:07:01 PM »
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:46:43 PM by Tim Crosby »
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2010, 10:09:44 PM »
   
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:46:57 PM by Tim Crosby »
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2010, 10:14:51 PM »
Thank you Coryjoe for your thoughts. After looking this thing over, I have to say I am stumped. The seller is letting me keep the horn and conduct research. I could sure use some knowledgable opinions! ??? :-\
Joel Hall

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2010, 11:35:47 PM »
I have known horn collectors who were very cautious and were often not 100% certain even about horns they purchased when those horns did not have provenance that went back before the 1930's.  It is a very fine horn, whenever it was made.  If it is newer and aged, it is not overdone.  If it is old, it was not used much after the campaign and was well stored.  Is there any insect damage?

Do the lines in the scrimming feel raised at all?  Is the color in the natural scratches the same or different than that in the inked engraved areas?  I would certainly look to see if that name is in the archives of soldiers serving at Crown Point.  It has the appearance of being scrimmed by a professional hand in the map portion and by the owner in the name area.  Do you see any evidence that different tools may have been used in these 2 areas?

The throat and butt areas seem much more worn and rough looking than the scrimmed section.  At the very least it's probably been cleaned more in that area to reveal the scrimming, which is very distinct.  Is one side a little more worn than the other?

This is the kind of "find" that could be worth a great deal of money to the right person.
Andover, Vermont

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2010, 11:50:42 PM »
Joel, another area you might want to check off your list is to look at the engraving under a microscope to look for any evidence for steel wool. 
Just to be sure.
Gary
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 02:38:07 AM »
Joel,

Just looking at your pictures, it doesn't look right to me.  The engraving is very good, modern good, and the background around it is lighter than the rest of the horn.   It looks like to  me that an old horn was cleaned off, engraved and re-aged.   Of course that is just my impression from the pictures for what it's worth.   I am far from an expert.

Mark E.

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2010, 03:26:34 AM »
My first impression is old horn , new engraving .

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2010, 03:28:57 AM »
Great carving...crapo architecture...heavy and thick, looks like it was quickly cut with a file to improvise the keeper ring and grailing by an amateur maker...not really good quality even for (or should I say especially for) the era it is supposed to be from ...I agree, old, altered horn with new carving...and "new" could mean early 20th century mind you...

such fine carving is often seen on equally fine horns...but then again not always...guess it boils down to credable provenance....plus the aging seriously looks applied to me...but that could be the image quality...can you keep it till the CLA show, or Dixons...many experts will be at either event and Im sure you could get some great advice on the spot...
TCA  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 03:32:57 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 12:19:08 PM »
Thanks all for coming to my rescue here! Rich, using your methods to try and verify it's authenticity have been most helpful. First of all, the piece has absolutly no provinance. The seller has no idea where this horn has been prior to his ownership. Big negative from the git go! In running my finger tips across the engraving, I can feel the fine furrows of each line. Using my finger nails gently, each depression finds the bump made by the graver. Doing the same thing over the brass patchbox of a 190 year old longrifle, there is nothing but smoothness there. This is going over very bold engraving mind you and it is like it was painted on.......Brass is a bit harder than horn and I would think a patchbox would not get the handling wear that a horn would get. So there is another big negative for this horns authenticity.
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2010, 01:05:07 PM »
 Thirdly, when looking at the inner cut semi circles adorning the horns throat.......the ones along the collar ring, I find lots of spiral marks made by a certain drilling tool. I get the same mark using a dremel cherry. The entire stem of the throat of the horn has the architecture of a billow pillow. Definately not in step with the quality of it's engraving. Another concern I find no wear marks on either side of the body to show it was worn and used. Lastly, I cannot find any sign of any staple holes in or around the butt area. No set up for strap attachment. A very tiny single hole near the center of the plug. Not substantial enough to hold such a massive piece. This powderhorn has flunked the authenticity test with flying colors!  Thanks to all again for the input here! Saved me a couple grand which is for me a lot of mula! One of the first things I said to the seller of this horn was had he ever checked the internet for pricing on similar F&I war PH's? He said that he hadn't. I openly told him that the "real ones" go for many times his asking price. He just shrugged his shoulders and was silent. Another big negative for the horns statice is the body language and the "air" of it's presentation. I chock this one up as another too good to be true stories! :(
Joel Hall

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 04:07:11 PM »
Back in the 1970's (in the Washington/Baltimore area) there was a guy who would set up at all of the local gun shows with powder horns, he usually had a table full of them.  He would take old powder horns and scrimshaw  them with different historically correct themes.  The guy did beautiful work, but usually used bottom end horns.  Of course back then everybody knew the stuff was new/old, but it was fairly cheap and he sold a bunch of it, I bet there are hundreds of his pieces still floating around.  I think the guy is long since dead and gone, but a few years ago I saw a Rev War horn that I recognized as one of his pieces.  Your horn looks like something he made.

One good thing about this whole experience with the whale tooth and this horn Joel, your getting an excellent hands on education!  ;D

Frank

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 04:28:24 PM »
I have learned a lot here.  I agree wit Mr. Eliot, the different features of the horn just do not go together. 

Fullstock: that is a very interesting bit of information. 

Good luck with it. 

Coryjoe

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2010, 05:23:30 PM »
Ya Frank, an education that hasn't blistered my pocketbook as of yet! Thanks to the shared knowledge attained here on the ALR! I'm very glad you learned something right along with me Coryjoe!  I find it kind of strange that both these pieces came at me in such a close time frame. Especially for a guy who doesn't get around that much. If I was a superstitious man, I'd sure be looking over my shoulder for antique treasure item #3 to show up at my door very soon. :o You know how they say stuff always comes up in three's. Seems like the buying and selling of antiques is a lot like poker. Whether you're a pennie annie player or one who scoots up to the bar with all of the high rollers, it's best not to let em see you sweat! I must have a real "poker face" :D ::)
Joel Hall

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2010, 06:39:24 PM »
I'll agree also with Mark and TC, the archeticture of the horn is way off from a 'classic'.   Most engrailing leaves about 1/3 of the horn for the throat, ring, etc.  This one is done half way up the horn.  Not very pleasing to the eyes and I appreciate the info provided by Fullstock.  Every once in a while on ebay you suspect you'll see a horn that just doesn't fit in the 18th century, but there are people that end up paying some bucks for them.  I'm sure that gentleman in the 70's spoke of by Fullstock wasn't trying to fool anybody then, but did he sign and date them??????  Probably not and now we have collectors and so called local experts that may be fooled.  Interesting discussion and thanks for the opportunity to learn a bit more about horns Capt.
Gary
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Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2010, 10:44:44 PM »
Gary, unfortunately none of the new/old horns were signed and dated that I'm aware of.  I suppose that even if they were, somebody probably would have eventually removed that information to sell them as originals.  Heck, with some of the fantastic horns you guys are currently making, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being peddled as originals someday as well.

The best defense against trickery and fakes is, as always, to educate yourselves and study known originals. Joel, your lucky this one only cost you some time.   ;)

"Buyer beware".

Frank
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 12:22:32 AM by Fullstock »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2010, 01:09:26 AM »
   Where would the strap have been on the neck? You would think there would be a  mark or shadow.

 If you Google the name someone has done some research but the person they talk off was not alive in 1759. Although the family has been here long enough. It does not mean this John was not alive in 1759.

http://users.rcn.com/waynemccarthy/LMM2002/Hosmertxt.html

The engraving looks like others down to the shape of lettering and buildings.  Somewhere I have see the flag, drum, cannon but I cannot find it.   

In Dresslers’ book there is a horn with the name Abel Hosmer on it, It is a Great horn, dated 1760 and Crown point.

 I do not have a problem with the proportion or location of engraving, only that the skill/ability used in the engraving, to me, is not reflected in the horn work. Not unusual in that certainly some horns were made by one person and engraved by others and the fact that some peoples horn work is better than their engraving and vice versa. 

  These are just thoughts, I am of the opinion that there is No way to verify a horn unless it has written provenance that has come down with it, i.e., through a  family.  If you do get it start that trail based on what you know for sure.

Tim C.

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2010, 02:04:15 AM »
I just want to add this important bit to this experience. I must give the seller of this horn my hat's off commendation. Not too many merchants will let you take something home without paying for it and give you time to study. I honestly believe this fellow thinks his horn is the real deal. I will do my best to let him down gently with plenty of finess. After all, the powder horn is still a fine artistic work.
Joel Hall

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2010, 03:42:10 AM »
Hey, Joel, I'm glad you posted after we talked yesterday a.m.  And it 's too bad you can't make it to Dixon's with me.

Bill
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2010, 04:53:52 AM »
I had an antique dealer want to pass horns off in his shop as originals. He bought two from me and I just did not get a good vibe from him.  He said he wanted more but when he saw I sign and date horns he did not ask for me.  I sign date, and have a trademark.  It has never happened to me, but the guy who taught me saw one of his horns being passed as orignal and they had scraped his name off, but his trade mark gave it away.

Coryjoe

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2010, 01:32:31 PM »
Has anyone here ever heard of a "Colonial Revival Period" which took place in the 1920's? I ran across this similar horn with nicer architecture depicting F&I War themes around NY colony. You will have to scroll down most of the page to get to it. The Ambrose site is always a fun treck! Lots of eye candy with good historical significance. http://www.ambroseantiques.com/hornsflasks.htm
Joel Hall

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2010, 04:28:39 PM »
Interest in Rev-War artifacts became the fashion about 1876 with the Centennial from what I have read.
So its possible to think people were making fakes and copies even then to sell to the rich.
If there is money there is the motivation and motivation is all that is needed.
This, and the fakery of the early 20th century and since, is sad really.

Dan
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Original Powder Horn's How Can You Tell? Pictures Added
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2010, 07:12:37 PM »
Yes...the revival periods are what I was refering to as well...here in the last months of the first decade of the 21st century, the early 1900s is a long time ago already...the 1870s even longer...what seems to give horns like this away is the horn, not the carving...not to say that engraving on that level is easy by any means...but many engravers are capable of such work, though they may not know beans about horn smithing...and that usually shows....

I think a modern engraver ( meaning post 18th century for sure..and 20th century seems most likely) was provided with an old original crapo horn...he did his thing...including filing in some grailing etc...and thought it was a good enough canvas for his skills...who would know, or for that matter even care, Im sure at the time it was well recieved as an example of what it was, fantastic new carving on a seemingly suitable old horn, and the artistr was praised for his skill by whom ever he made it for, gave it to, or even sold it too(Im giving the benifit of the doubt here that it was initially not made to decieve anyone),  ...as to the apparent lack of decent horn smithing on the particular horn in question, its only recently that we have access to such wealths of knowledge as forums like this, or recently published full color books etc...about carved horns so that we can base our work today on truer examples...let alone rediscover, research, or be taught the techniques used to create professional caliber powder horns. So even though the carver definately had some kind of example to study and go by, most likely a black and white image from an antiques magazine etc...making an actual suitably proper horn was problematical, but finding an old one, especially  a crude one, not so much so...and he was interested or dedicated to history enough that he even used a good old name and proper dates etc...

Also, I was of the understanding that such levels of carving skill as seen on this horn, but genuinely done in the 1750/1760s, represented the work of professional gravers and horn smiths...and such pieces were commemeorative type horns produced to be sold (or connisioned by) those that served in the war and were well off enough to afford such work..I never thought such graving was "battlefield " or spare time sitting around the fort type work...but rather high end shop work...and a high end shop would not try to sell a crude powder horn like that in my opinion, no matter how well it was going to be carved...but would rather carve on a professionally made horn equal to the carving...

of course...if it was a special horn near and dear to some F+I veterans heart...like one his relative made for him, and one he carried at his side as he fought...perhaps he could have had it commemoratively carved after the fact specially....hiring a professional graver to do it...but it seems such extremely personal home spun type horns when decorated, were decorated specifically with "battle field" renditions, and tend to exhibitit more folky and primative carving techniques acordingly ....

Again, please indulge me the above thoughts as this this is all just my just my opinion...and  I would also say the horn is worth what its carving is worth...as an example of supurb horn carving.worth perhaps many hundreds,but as an historic war relic commanding the high price of known F+I horns carved to a similar level...no way...TCA
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 07:54:16 PM by T.C.Albert »
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