Author Topic: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle  (Read 10193 times)

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« on: July 12, 2010, 05:16:11 AM »
I picked up this Iron Mounted Flintlock today.

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/sequatchie/54%20Caliber%20Long%20Tanged%20Tennessee%20Rifle/?action=view&current=e6b83ca0.pbw

44 1/8th inch barrel
60 1/4th inches overall length
.54 caliber

Anyone have an idea who made it or where it was made?

Thanks for you help in identifying this rifle.
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline gibster

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 03:23:28 PM »
Nice rifle.  I owned one very similar at one time and thought that it was made in E Tenn.  At first glance, I thought it was the same rifle, but it's not.  Anyway, I had several folks tell me that they thought it was probably western Carolina's or northern Georgia.  I never was able to pin it down and eventually traded it off.  It's one of those that I wish I still had, but it's long gone.  Best of luck on your search.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 05:39:49 PM »
Hi Bill.  Nice rifle.  I agree with Gibster.  Maybe, western Carolina's. The Doll's head tang is kind of like I have seen on a Gillespie.  The front trigger, trigger guard and low comb make me think Carolina too.  I'll do a little more studying.    
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 05:42:55 PM by Ken Guy »
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 05:42:40 PM »
Man - I love it!  Great untouched looking rifle.  Is that a tang screw coming down through the boss on the return of the triggerguard bow?  Very unusual for a southern mountain rifle.

At first glance I'm inclined to go with the western Carolina or Georgia origin,and there are some things on the gun that are very Gillespie-esque to me, which could fit either area (as Ken  pointed out - the doll's head tang, the guard shape (except fot the recurve at the front of the bow). The overall archticture to me has a feel similar to the early Matthew G guns.  But there are enough unusual features that I don't think it is Matthew, maybe another family member or someone who worked with them.  We need Dennis' input here.

Super piece, and it's got an early look to me as far as these types of guns go - I would guess 1830s or earlier - maybe a decade or two earlier even,  but hard to say.

Guy
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 05:47:01 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 06:09:46 PM »
Thanks for the comments!  Does the large caliber help date it- were large calibers more common earilier?  Most of the E. Tn rifles I see are in the 36-45 caliber.

I'll try to photo the tang screw and post it tonight.
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline G-Man

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 06:33:23 PM »
In the region where that gun likely came from, there were bear rifles made in pretty large calibers up through the late flint era, but that gun does have a pretty early look to me.  I am no an expert on locks, but I could see that gun being as early as 1810-20 altough the triggers and extended toe on the stock look to me more likely after 1820, in my opinion.  But we just really don't have a solid baseline of firmly dated mountain rifles to know absolutley when certain features appeared.  Some features may go back earlier than we think.  On the other hand, some of these rifles are surprising as to how late they were making things that on first glance one would assume to be early.

Can't rule out reuse of an earlier barrel either - I think it was probably fairly common in the mountains.  There are a couple of "bear rifles" in Jerry Noble's books with large bore barrels that look to be reused from earlier guns.  Don't get me wrong - I am not thinking of this gun as a "restock" - I think its a really superb southern mountain rifle made by a good gunmaker, with this being the first stocking of the mounts, etc. just perhaps reused  an earlier barrel.  Adds to the charm in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing that with us and I would love to see it in the Virtual Library if you and the moderators agree.  It has some things that make it unique.

Guy
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 06:40:17 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Rick Sheets

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 06:56:30 PM »
Sure looks like a Gillespie rifle to me. I want it.
Thanks for posting it. Untouched. Did I say I want it?
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 08:35:48 PM »
Quote
The overall archticture to me has a feel similar to the early Matthew G guns.  But there are enough unusual features that I don't think it is Matthew, maybe another family member or someone who worked with them.  We need Dennis' input here.
I agree that the general lines look a lot like a Mathew G. rifle and I have seen a couple of Gillespie guards that looked similar. But there are many more traits that make me say its not a Gillespie i.e. front & rear sights, toe plate, triggers, cheekrest and the nose cap is longer than most Mathew G. rifles.

Most early Gillespie's had pointed trigger plates (rear). I have never seen a sideplate like that on a Gillespie. I have never seen an original Gillespie with a larger bore than .45 (rifle that is! I have seen a .54 flint pistol by Mathew).

Mathew had an older brother, William and a younger brother, Robert Harvey that do not appear to have ever signed their rifles. There is no way to know for sure what their rifles looked like.

I would say that there is a good chance this is a western NC rifle. My second guess would be eastern TN.
Dennis



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Offline Curt J

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 02:16:12 AM »
Really fine architecture on this rifle.  A Superior workman, whoever he was.

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 07:32:55 PM »
  Real interesting. The tapered tang that terminates in a spear point / leaf, the style and method of attachment of the guard and several other details on the rifle are strikingly similar to a rifle I have seen that was made by Pleasant Wilson, probably while he was in Kentucky during the early 1800's ( born in late 1700's in South Carolina if I remember right). I'm not suggesting he made the rifle, but there is enough here to indicate some kind of association.
  I want to point this out to those that may not have noticed - it appears that the guard bow attachment is the same as the Wilson rifle  - Sequatchie correct me if I'm wrong about this -   in that the bow terminates in a threaded boss which receives the tang bolt through a hole in the trigger plate, and the "front extension" of the guard is actually an extended portion of the trigger plate itself, similar arrangement as some fowlers and shotguns.  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:34:19 PM by Pratt »

Offline G-Man

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 10:20:26 PM »
Ian - it looks to me like the finial of the guard extended forward, rather than the trigger plate itself, but it is hard to tell from the photos.  However, I would think that would be sort of a tough arrangement to forge up - probably would be easier to do as you described, almost a variation of the approach used on later Hawken rifles.

Hey - wouldn't that be something - if this were the missing link -a fullstock long barreled flint early "proto-Hawken..."

I prefer to think it southern though. ;)

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 10:56:53 PM »
Guy,
Somewhere I read that the southern mountain rifle was the forerunner of the Hawken style rifle. Can't remember where I read that.

I do know that on the first Gillespie that I built I had traced one on paper and stopped by Fred Miller's on my way to Buffalo NY. I wanted to see if Fred had a southern mountain pattern that was close. We checked and his didn't come close. We kept checking patterns and finely found one that was almost a perfect fit. It was a J & S Hawken. All I had to do was cut about an inch off the belly from butt to forearm and it made a perfect Gillespie.
Dennis
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 06:21:00 AM »
I just added 22 more photos showing details of the trigger guard area, tang, lock and sideplate.   Let me know if these clarify the questions about the trigger guard.

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/sequatchie/54%20Caliber%20Long%20Tanged%20Tennessee%20Rifle/
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:22:17 AM by Sequatchie Rifle »
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 01:57:20 PM »
Yes - it does - the method of attachment is that there is no forward finial for the guard - it attaches to the trigger plate via the tang screw as Ian said (like the Wilson rifle).  The trigger plate extends forward where the forward guard finial would normally be, sort of like a Hawken, but the method of attachment is different. 

Like said in my original post, that arrangement is very unique for a southern mountain rifle - usually the triggers are held in place by the guard.

A very interesting rifle, and great condition. Thanks for the extra photos.

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 11:42:15 PM »
On photo 22 it looks to me as if the vent hole has been outside conned, might not be.
Dennis
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dannybb55

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 12:18:45 AM »
There is a lot more forging than filing on the hardware. This man had a very practical bent and was not constrained by tradition. Could you draw a set of patterns of her or make a photo with a 6 or 12 inch ruler in it for scale?

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 09:05:55 PM »
I'd like to follow up on Ian Pratt's comments regarding this gun and a possible connection to guns made by Pleasant Wilson in Kentucky.

The similarities in details on this rifle to those on the several known Pleasant Wilson rifles are striking. The tang shape, toe plate, trigger guard shape and filing, etc. all strongly resemble the work of Wilson, including the tang bolt anchoring into the bow of the guard. Wilson worked in Clay County, Kentucky in the southeastern hill country, where Tennessee influences were prevelent. However, Wilson's roots were in North Carolina, but he would have been influenced by the Tennessee influences in his area of KY. I can't help but believe this rifle is associated in some manner with Pleasant Wilson.

There are a couple of key differences, including the triggers which are not in Wilson's style, and the side facings which also vary from Wilson's work. His side facings had a soft point on the front end, while this gun has a rounded nose. All 3 known Wilson rifles have the pointed side facings. Many of the triggers found on southeastern KY guns are handmade, since "store bought" parts were rare due to a lack of money to purchase them - most commerce in that area of KY was done heavily on the barter system - hence parts were often handmade well into the late 1800s, including barrels, triggers and some locks. These triggers don't look like Wilson's handmade triggers. Wilson used mixed metal on his rifles, with forged iron guards and butt plates, and sheet brass smaller parts such as pipes and nose caps.

Wilson began working in Clay Co. about 1816, and was still there in 1835. Sometime between 1835 and 1850, and most likely in the mid-1840s when others from his area of KY were migrating west, he moved to Missouri. His son was a gunsmith, but was too young to make this gun. We do not know if Wilson's father was a gunsmith, and there is no record of it, but the possibility exists that he was. Interestingly, his first name was Phillip, so if he was a gunsmith, his name stamp would also be "P. Wilson." Also interesting is the  fact that there are two known "P. Wilson" barrel stamps, one with slightly larger letters than the other, but otherwise very similar in style. Perhaps this is getting too speculative, but at least the possibility exists for two P. Wilsons.

Regardless, this rifle has many similarities to the known Wilson rifles, which tends to suggest the gun was made in southeastern KY close to where P. Wilson worked. He apparently had a couple of apprentices, but their names are unknown. Regardless of all this, it's a nice looking rifle with interesting "southern" details. I have a suspicion that the cock is not correct for this lock, too early in my opinion, which may throw off the dating. It would be nice to see the lock mortise with the current lock out of the gun, to make sure it is the original plate. One final point regarding another posted response. All Wilson rifles had well filed and finished hardware, both iron and brass parts. This rifle has been in a barn or other humid place where its iron mountings could rust/rough up, pehaps hiding the original filed surface and fine workmanship on better rifles from this southeastern area of KY.  This is a good rifle to see, and to discuss.  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 06:30:35 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2010, 04:36:03 AM »
I'll take the lock off tomorrow afternoon and shoot some photos.
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Offline Tanselman

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2010, 07:04:19 AM »
I am sure you have already checked closely, but is there any chance there is still a trace of a name or initials, or even partial initial, on the barrel, under the rust and roughened surface? If so, I could compare it to known gunmakers in that area of KY to see if something might match.

Is it possible to get the original "basic" shots of this rifle for my records, since there is a good possibility this gun was made in KY, where I collect, research and from time to time publish articles on early gunmakers, etc. The posted photos are great for a computer screen, but pretty low resolution for other work and pixilate quickly when enlarged even moderately. I thought perhaps the original photos were higher resolution and might blow up better to see details.

By "basic" shots I mean: 1) half-shot front view, from butt to about 8 inches past lock plate, 2) half-shot rear view from butt to about 8 inches past side facing (where lock is on other side), 3) full length shot taken directly over, and square to, the rifle (if possible to get), 4) shots of key details such as toe plate, tang, guard and guard's attachment, etc. that you have already taken and displayed here so effectively.

If the original photos have greater resolution than the posted copies, and you would be willing to share them, my e-mail is sgallien@comcast.net.  Thanks,  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 07:04:44 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2010, 07:45:31 AM »
I just posted some photos with the lock removed.   I'll try to get some better photos this weekend if I can!
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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2010, 09:11:37 PM »
Is there provision for only one bolt in the stock to hold the lock plate on? I see that there is a threaded hole in the front of the lock plate for a 2nd bolt to come through from the left side as well, but seemingly no provision for it through the stock at that point. What was the screw with the slotted  head doing in that hole from the outside of the lock plate? Was this an attempt to fill the unused hole to keep dirt out?

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Rifle Identification- Tennessee Rifle
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2010, 08:33:43 AM »
I suppose it was placed there to help hold the lock on.
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320