Patch Box progress pictures.

[M Tornichio]

I thought that I would share some pictures of a rifle that I have been working on. This is not ment to be a tutorial, just some shots as work progresses. I am basing this rifle off of two different surviving Jacob young style rifles. I am not copying either rifle exactly, but attempting to build in his style.
I always enjoy seeing peoples work while in progress, I hope you guys enjoy.
First pictures shows the architecture of stock. Has a slight step toe.

Second picture is a test to make sure that the pattern I have drawn is going to fit on the stock.

Third patern has been attached to steel.




At this point the box has been roughly cut out still filing the profile to final shape. I have the hinge formed, but not filed yet. Forgot to take some pictures. will post some more soon.

[tbailey]

That is very cool, I really like it. What are you going to use to make the lid latch? I have one patchbox that I can't decide on how to make one, a nail of some type, any help from you or anyone would be great.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

On a box like that, is the head of the hinge a separate piece from the rest of the patchbox?

[bgf]

Very nice job on the subtle step.  I like the patchbox, but to me it looks more like a "deconstruction" of Jacob Young boxes than one he would have made.  I.e., all the elements are there, but the profile and interpretation of the elements is quite different from what I would have expected when you said Jacob Young.  For example, the profile of your box seems to be based on a long V-shape, whereas his appear to my eye anyway, to be based on a slightly shorter U.  Also, such things as the relative size of the finial (yours appears larger), the thinness of the transition to it, and  the depth, tightness and alignment of the C-scrolls (? cutouts along the edge) seems different.  I stare at pictures of the two Young rifles almost daily (sad but true -- they are my favorites), but if you hadn't told me you were following Jacob Young, my first thought would have been that is was a different builder who worked in an allied school.  Don't take this as criticism (I've only tried to build one (a JY) patchbox and only half succeeded), but as simply the reaction of a viewer who likes the originals and your interpretation .

[smylee grouch]

Looks like some thing I will try in the future, so how thick is the steel for the box?     Gary

[chuck c.]

Mark, very nice work! I hope you continue to post your progress.

[Ken G]

Thanks for taking the time to take and post the pictures.  I really enjoy seeing step by step photo tutorials even if you didn;t mean for it to be one.  The guns looking great by the way.  The new owner will be very happy I'm sure.
Ken

[Tim Crosby]

 Great PB design Marc, I'm glad it's you fitting all those knuckles. Is that one of your BP? Thanks for the pics, keep us posted.

 Tim C.

 

[Larry Luck]

Marc,

Very nice interpretation of the Young boxes.  I've only seen the two rifles posted on Mel Hankla's site and they set the hook for me to try one.

A few years ago, Dennis Glazener (i believe) posted some photos from a Florida History Museum that had an interesting exposed hinge and that looked like it might share some of the design elements of a Young box, but removed a generation or so.  Here is the box (photoshopped) from that rifle:


Here are some experiments to blend the two designs into a "Fantasy Patchbox" (I hear the distant sound of villagers with torches!)


The top one has the forward part of the hinge bent forward.  The bottom one has it at 90 degrees to the box surface.  I still have not finalized my design.

I'm looking forward to more photos of your progress (read:  what does your triggerguard look like?)

Thanks for the post.

Larry Luck

PS  as I was looking at the photo of your subtle step, I decided to look again at the photos of the Florida Museum rifle, and here is the area of the rear part of the triggerguard.  Subtle step?

[M Tornichio]

Thanks for the encouragement guys.
To answer some questions,

I am going to form the hinge with a piano wire.

The hinge is seperate from everything else. It has an offset that is going to attach at the top with rivets and probably solder. I ment to take some pictures, but I will have to take them tomorow, since I forgot tonight.

The steel that I used was from a washing machine side cover. It measures .040 I am afraid that it is probably way too thin though. I started bending the patchbox to the stock contour. I think that I will need to get the bend just right to get the inlet correct. Anyone have any thoughts on this before I start inletting?

BGF you have made some very fair statements. I do appreciate them. I should really not call this rifle out as a copy, only that it was inspired. I really did not want to do an exact copy. For example I did a step toe that really would be in between the two surviving rifles that I have seen. The box was really just an interpretation with my own thoughts of what might look good. I will be the first to admit that it might not come out the best in the end. I just have to give it a shot and see how things end up. I am not going to file the buttplate the way he did on either rifle. I plan on doing something else, I just have not made up my mind yet though. The ramrod pipes are totally different and the guard is not exact match either. I don't have pictures of the muzzle cap, but I tried to do something totally different that might be considered inspired from some of his engraving designs on both rifles. I will take a picture of this area tomorrow.

In the mean time here are a few more pictures

[M Tornichio]

Larry,
I also wanted to say thanks so much for posting the pictures of the iron mounted rifle, I never saw them the first time they were posted. The rifle looks to be very interesting. I am glad you posted them.
After looking at your two patch boxes. I really like the bottom one. I like the fact that you made an interpretation of the two and come up with something new. Nice work. I would like to see pictures of the rifle when you are finished.
Marc

[bgf]

Marc,
I think the work looks great, and I like it more because you didn't copy anything exactly (although I would love a bench copy of either or both!).  If my remarks came across as negatively critical, that wasn't the intent.  They were more like an implied question as to how you thought it through and made the choices you did.  As I said, those rifles are my favorite, so I intend to do some more following them, but I always get stuck between being too close to the design or going too far afield .  The way you reassembled the elements actually helped me better understand what was going on in the originals, and I think it fits where you are going with the rest of the rifle.  Is this rifle at all influenced by the one that H. House did?  You seem to be integrating slightly later "mountain" features with Jacob Young design elements and a high quality of furniture.  It will be wonderful to see the finished product.


PS. -- Just for a laugh, this is what I did, and I'm neither happy nor exactly finished with it, although I probably will add a real latch and try to engrave it (about time, just got tarnished:)).


Larry,
Your pictures are very interesting.  There is a family resemblance from the FL. rifle to Jacob Young, although it looks to be at some remove -- the captured lid has almost gotten loose .  Your fantasy piece came out really nice.

[G-Man]

Mark - the gun from the Florida museum looks to be a very old (period) restock of some very nice, relatively early (ca: 1790s-1810) iron hardware.  I don't think it has a step.  The original gun it came off of might have, but hard to say - based on the proportions of the guard, I don't think so - but who knows. It's real interesting since the patchbox looks to have ties to Jacob Young, the guard looks like Joseph Bogle, and the buttplate looks like neither of them.  As it is stocked now, it has a half round cheekpiece and slight "fishbelly" profile to the toeline which were popular in the percussion era.  

Interestingly, the iron mounted Jacob Young rifle that turned up a few years back, which looks later (1820s), than the two brass pieces (1800-1815) has a sliding wooden patchbox....so Jacob varied his work.

The captured lid box was in use by a lot of gunmakers by the early 1800s, from Virginia southwest all the way into Tennessee, up into central Kentucky, and over in the western piedmont of North Carolina.  There are infinite variations on it - there are even east Tennessee rifles that combine its use with the classic east Tennessee "banana" box.  So there is a lot of room for running with an idea inspired by the work of Mr. Young - one of the great, relatively unsung gunsmiths of the early transmountain west.

 

Guy

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Mark,

I am no expert on these Young guns, but I like your buttplate and toe architecture and the flow of your PB even better than his. Looks like maybe he might have built it a little later in his career. Its recognizable, but aesthetically more pleasing to my eye.  I very much like the way you design and build guns that carry on the tradition into today while respecting the original work. My guess is that Jacob Young would be pleased to see what he has inspired. Someone is going to be a pleased and lucky owner of a beautiful piece of American art. I can't wait to see it progress.

[Larry Luck]

Marc,

Thanks for the additional photos.  I really like that triggerguard.  Very nice work.  I agree with Tim.  The owner will be proud of that rifle.

Larry Luck

[smylee grouch]

Your gun looks great so far, and I love the trigger guard. You will have to really bend and plan when you inlet the patchbox but I can see you are more than up to it from pics of your work. Great job and good luck.    Gary

[G-Man]

Just to be clear - I don't think Jacob Young stocked the rifle or originally made the hardware shown in the posted photos (the Museum of Florida gun) - there are too many differences from his buttplates, guards and triggers.   But I do think the hardware probably originated somewhere in the same general region where Jacob was from and working - somewhere between far southwestern Virginia and Middle Tennessee.  He appears to have been born in the Watauga settlements - TN/NC/VA border area - in 1773 and moved west from there.

If the Whitley rifle or Woodfork rifle by Jacob Young are on display at the CLA show this year, I would recommend anyone interested in southern rifles to spend some time looking at them closely.  The architecture and workmanship, particularly the metal work, are superb.  Maybe we will get lucky and the iron mounted example will be there too.  There are few opportunities where we can see examples of brass and iron mounted pieces by the same makers side by side.  In general, it seems like with these southern makers, when they made both styles of mounts, they tended to keep the iron  mounted pieces simpler in terms of decoration and the outlines of the hardware, etc.  But the hardware is still well made and recognizable in form to their brass mounted pieces.

Nice work Mark.  

Guy

[msw]

i agree with Gary- really love the triggerguard, and i like the patchbox.  i appreciate the trouble you took to do the post- well done with good photos.  looks like a really fine looking rifle in the making.

[bgf]

Larry, Guy,
If there's a chance that the FL. rifle's patchbox is earlier, then that hinge on it really illuminates the engraving in that shape and location on the Young boxes (and similar).  I initially thought it was later, and that the hinge was done that way in place of engraving, but that seems backwards.  Either way, its a nice piece for comparison.

The Whitley rifle is on display at the Whitley house in Crab Orchard (KY).  I plan to take a trip down there soon.  Surely the Woodfork will be at a CLA show again someday.  I've never seen even a picture of the iron-mounted Young rifle, just caught a few cryptic references to it (hint to anyone that has a picture).

[jcmcclure]

I can't speak for the other Young guns, but I will be bringing the Whitley rifle to the CLA show once again this year. If you come to take the house museum tour, by park policy we do not allow pictures of the rifle, but while on display the show you may take pictures to your hearts desire. Last year I had a chance to examine the iron mounted Young rifle and these guns are really quite interesting...the iron gun raised some questions with me, but they are wonderful guns non the less. Maybe if we are all lucky we can get some pictures of these guns together

I would love to talk to any-and-all who are interested in the Whitley Rifle and Horn while at the show, so stop by and we will talk Young guns!!! Not sure where we will be set up this year, but come and find us. Before I for get, it is great to see that others are taking interest in Jacob Young and his building style, esp his wonderful patchboxes.

Joseph Casey McClure, Int. Park Manager
William Whitley House State Historic Site. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Maybe Jan Riser could do a photo study of the guns together and/or apart??

[bama]

I will have the "Ridgill" rifle at the CLA that is attributed to Thomas Simpson and is dated 1803. According to Frank House and a few others Thomas Simpson and Jacob Young had a working relationship. You can see this in the similarities of the patch box and side plate designs on these guns. The "Ridgill" gun has a patch box almost identical to the "Mansker" rifle by Simpson. While this is not a iron mounted gun I think you will see the similarity the box you are making has to this rifle.

[G-Man]

Thanks Jim - I would love to see that gun in person. 

Joe - good to hear from you.  I would love to get another look at the Whitley rifle in person.   I did not get photos the last time I saw it at the CLA show in 2008. 

These are part of a really great group of guns by some makers that are just beginning to be understood.  They really show the quality of work that was being done west of the mountains by the Golden Age period.

Guy

[jcmcclure]

I too would love to see the gun attributed to Simpson. How interesting it would be the know the connections that Simpson and Young had together.

[M Tornichio]

 I look forward to seeing the whitley rifle again this year. There is so much detail on these rifles it is really hard to take it all in once. I have been trying to find pictures of the simpson rifle that was for mansker. So far no luck. Does anyone know if they exist anywhere.
Bama I will make sure that I stop by your table this year. I think you were in the same room as I was last year. I would love to look at your rifle. I did not know that there were two Simpson rifles.
Thanks for all the comments on the patch boxes this tread as been most helpful for me.

Here are a couple of additional pictures.
I am in the process of inletting the box right now. I had to stop tonight, I could not see very well. Did not want to make any mistakes.