Author Topic: Buttons On Bags  (Read 9442 times)

Offline Tim Crosby

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Buttons On Bags
« on: July 14, 2010, 01:14:06 AM »
I wonder why they put buttons on hunting/shooting bags/pouches? Would you have buttoned it up every time you went into it? If you were on horseback it may be a good idea but just walking along I would think they would not get used.

 Tim C.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 01:14:52 AM by Tim Crosby »

Offline LRB

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 01:28:22 AM »
  Ever slip and roll down an incline for 40 feet? You would be glad you were buttoned up, and don't have tp spend the next hour picking up what used to be in your bag.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 01:42:03 AM »
 Ever slip and roll down an incline for 40 feet? You would be glad you were buttoned up, and don't have tp spend the next hour picking up what used to be in your bag.

  That makes sense.

 Tim C.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 03:23:23 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline skillman

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 07:02:33 AM »
Tim
I use a button and a thong that loops around it. If I have to work it through a button hole it is just to much work. To loop the thong around it only takes a second. Still don't always do it.
Steve
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Offline Rick Sheets

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 03:41:02 PM »
I think the buttons were left loose when the carrier was not traveling.
I leave my pants button undone at home (and usually remember to fasten it when I go outside).
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 05:24:37 PM »
 :o :o :o........... ;D
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Jefferson58

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 07:57:10 PM »
Tim, I think the use of a button on a pouch can be dependent on several factors. A real short flap pouch probably will benefit from one rather well. The very few early originals we have been able to see seem to use one as they mostly have pretty short flaps. I expect part of this practice may have carried over from military pieces as well, but I could be wrong.

I make a fair amount of long flap Virginia pieces, and I have never seen a button on one of the originals like that. Usually the length of the flap and perhaps the weight of the horn riding against it would keep it pretty secure.

Just my thoughts and observations from studying these things.

Jeff

Offline Artificer

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 10:11:07 PM »
Most of the original bags extant are from the 19th century, so it's hard to say how common button closures would have been in earlier times.  I would suggest they would have been on bags where the user expected or found from experience that hard usage, personal slips/falls, and crossing large streams or rivers would have required a bag closure of some sort.  Yes, the rifle and bag and horn would have been carried above the person's head when crossing streams and rivers, but that doesn't mean one wouldn't slip or fall IN the water and spill contents from the bag with no closure on it.

The guys who only used their bags for hunting and where no hostiles were around, may have found no need for a closure, especially with the long flaps Jeff mentioned.  Then again, in hostile country, one may have wanted no closure or at least unbuttoned the pouch flap if he sensed or expected hostiles.  Personally I prefer a closure of some type and then have the option of leaving it unbuttoned when I prefer to do so.   

I think we have to be a bit careful when drawing too many conclusions from original bags, as well because leather is a perishable item.  I would suggest the bags that are extant are due in at least some major part to the fact they weren't used as much as other bags.  A bag that is only taken off the wall for hunting would most likely survive longer than a bag that was actually worn on the person every day in the harsh elements and over various terrain. 

Bottom line, if one wishes to use a period button or other type of period closure, there should be no reason not to do so.   Or, if the person wishes not to have one, that is their choice just as it was over 200 or more years ago.

Gus


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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 10:53:57 PM »
BTW,

I've often wondered if there is wear pattern evidence on the original long flap Virginia type bags where the long flap was tucked in behind the pouch to allow easy access to the bag?  I'm thinking of something like a rifle match where it might be handy to keep the flap open and out of the way?

Gus

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 02:22:42 AM »
Not to say that such flap tucking wasnt done, it sounds like something that would work very well, but the one painting of a shooting match that comes to mind, "Shooting the Beef" by George Caleb Bingham, has the most shooting bags in one painting that I know of, and none of them are tucked, even on the guy about to pull the trigger. Bingam may have taken artistic liberties, but he seems pretty accurate and painted from field sketches I think. Anyway, its a great painting....but then its worth noting that the bags shown are not the super long exagerated beaver tails that you may be referring to and would better lend them to tucking. 
TCA
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 03:41:41 PM »
 Thanks for all the responces.

 Tim I think this is the paintiing you were talking about.

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/americanstories/objectView.aspx?sid=3&oid=17


 Tim C.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 05:11:55 PM »
yep..thats it...I count indications of at least 8 bags...(though some are indicated only by visable straps) THe shooter does have his horn under the flap of the bag, a neat detail to see included, showing perhaps he never placed it back under the horn after fetching out a ball from the bag...
a close up look seems to show a button hole in the flap too...and maybe a thong type arrangement on the front of the bag? (is that blue strip there patching?)
TCA
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2010, 05:45:53 PM »
Bingham was sort of an early Norman Rockwell eh?
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 06:37:27 PM »
  Yes it does look like a strip of patching, also looks like a percussion gun. Look at the clothing, jackets, short coats, long coats, what looks like a rifleman’s frock on the left, with a belt. Interesting picture.

 Tim C.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 08:01:16 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 07:10:15 PM »
Not to say that such flap tucking wasnt done, it sounds like something that would work very well, but the one painting of a shooting match that comes to mind, "Shooting the Beef" by George Caleb Bingham, has the most shooting bags in one painting that I know of, and none of them are tucked, even on the guy about to pull the trigger. Bingam may have taken artistic liberties, but he seems pretty accurate and painted from field sketches I think. Anyway, its a great painting....but then its worth noting that the bags shown are not the super long exagerated beaver tails that you may be referring to and would better lend them to tucking. 
TCA

TC and Tim,

It was neat to be able to "zoom" that photo and look at it close up.  Thanks TC for bringing up the picture and to Tim for providing the link.  Even though the picture shows a flap with a fairly long tail, it has a hole in the flap for a closure device. 

The way the tail of the flap is shown laying over the horn intrigues me.  I'm trying to figure out why that was done.  The shooter would need to get back to his horn for the next shot before he got back into the bag, so maybe he just left the tail lay there while he fired the shot?  Lifting the horn to get another powder charge would have caused the tail to lift free and fall down, right?

Gus

Offline LRB

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 08:49:57 PM »
  The description says 1850.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 08:58:22 PM »
Bingham was great documentarian of sorts...worked in Missouri in the mid 1800s so he would have known the percussion era well...funny thing, the sign tacked to the tree reads "14 miles to Boonsbourgh" I think...I cant make it out in this image, but think thats what it says...which makes this a Kentucky shooting match...so maybe the frock was added with artistic lisence accordingly as well? Ive never seen a field sketch for this painting, I dont know where he got his inspiration..
TC
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 10:08:55 PM »
Well it coulda been MD or even SC as well as KY   ;D  ;D

Site of the 1763 Long Cane Massacre


It almost looks to me that the bag has  a weighted strap that could be pulled through the hole and left tto hang down an inch or so on the outside....but, when the flap was pulled up would come unfastened.........left to my own devices I would think that a fairly useful fastener....anybody ever seen one on old bags????  Maybe a forgotten art  :o ;D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:12:12 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 10:14:47 PM »
I think with Binghams fading frontier type images of the west...and the icvonic riflemen involved in the equally iconic shooting for the beef, the rererence to Daniel is artistically inferred...but Im just guessing...
I do love that painting...a nice repro copy of it it lines the lid of the old tool chest where I keep all of my old leather working and pouch making tools...
TC
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Buttons On Bags
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 10:20:28 PM »
Given that he also did the famous painting of Boone in the Cumberland gap...that is likely so........ You notice how his people resemble animated people in Second Like and other virtual worlds on the web....
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:21:41 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

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