Help with Southern Rifle identification , signed "JB"

[WElliott]

This rifle just came into my collection and I would like to get input from my knowledgeable ALR friends.  From the architecture, my impression is that it was made in SW Virginia, but I am open to other opinions.  It is signed with the initials "JB" on the top barrel flat.  There are several Virginia makers with the initials "JB", but none seem to fit my assumptions about the time and place of this rifle's creation.  Interestingly, the buttplate has strong resemblance to a certain family of Tennessee makers.

46 1/4" octagon barrel, 15/16" some swamp, .40 caliber
61 1/4 overall
13 1/4" pull
well made iron guard and buttplate
octagon brass thimbles and brass nose cap
2 1/4" pointed tang, single screw
fine double triggers
flintlock marked "London Warranted", 2 bolts with simple iron washers

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Beautiful architecture!!!!  I will be interested to see what people say. Architecture looks early, but all the screws indicate later to me. but what do I know.  I think you done good Wayne!!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am in LOVE!  Thanks for posting these Wayne. I have saved them in my files, and for lack of a better title, called the file "Really Nice".

[G-Man]

WOW  

Wayne - my first inclination would be possibly a very early John Bull.  There are some similarities to the Isaac Guess rifle.   Man, the architecture just brings tears to your eyes.  The mixed iron and brass hardware, pointed tang, and short tab on the entry thimble are features on his early guns that became more evolved on his later guns.

I will throw this out there as well though - what about the possibility of an early Bryan rifle from North Carolina or Kentucky?  The flaring butt and overall architecture are real similar to that fine iron mounted gun we discussed on here a few months back that is shown in Jerry Noble's books and in Dr. Whisker's book, that Louie Parker did the restoration of the lock on, and Shelby Gallien indicated that some believe is a Bryan rifle.

Man - what a great rifle.  Thanks for posting.

Guy

[jwh1947]

Southern Wayne, dang, I think you unearthed John Brown's famous rifle.  Promulgate the hypothesis; greater tales have been spawned and spread on flimsier "evidence."  Northern Wayne

[WElliott]

Thank you for the comments, gentlemen.  Guy, you picked up on my Tennessee reference.  An interesting possibility.  It would seem they were at least fishing in the same pond.
Northern Wayne, if you prove that hypothesis, I'll have to donate it to a Yankee museum.   
Southern Wayne

[art riser]

Now that's one fine rifle gun...

[G-Man]

For you guys who like to build southern mountain rifles take a look at the closeups of the lockbolts - the heads are beveled  - you see this a lot on East Tennessee rifles - just one of the little things that reduces and slims the overall visual appearance, that  a lot of folks miss. 

Guy

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well at least the front one is beveled...  the rear.. ..not so much  

Notice how slender the stock is between the plates at their points at the rear of the tang.... and with only a barest hint of the concave shoulders so typical of later Mtn rifles.  That rifle is just Pretty!!!

Wayne. Got another shot of the lock up close??

[G-Man]

The bevel I was referring to seen most typically is like one on the rear lockbolt - i.e. slight bevel on shoulder. 

Guy

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

just thought we should clear that up........ 

[WElliott]

I believe the front lockbolt is a replacement.
Tim, here is a closer view of the lock.

[Dennis Glazener]

Love that rifle but all I can say about it is it looks southern. Has anyone seen a set of triggers like that? They are unusual looking and should help with the I.D.

Take a look at the unsigned rifle on page 105 of Whiskers Longrifles of VA book. It has similar appearance.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

From the looks of the lock in the mortise.. I would guess a replacement?? or just loose?

[G-Man]

The triggers are very unusual - particularly the front trigger.  The closest I've seen to something shaped like that on  a front trigger is on an iron  mounted stepped wrist gun that looks to be from Virginia.

The guard/triggerplate arrangement is very unusual as well.  Note the obvious ledge or notch cut into the boss on the triggerguard return, to hold the triggers in place - typical on mountain rifles.  But then there is a screw mounted in the triggerplate from below to hold the plate in.  Perhaps it was added later, as it looks like it has pulled the triggerplate up farther into the stock a bit and it stands clear of the triggerguard "ledge" now.

Guy

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am going to guess that the triggers are single acting set triggers...the front trigger is far too far away from the sear bar to be effective as a firing unset trigger.  The lock is in almost new condition, apart from the rust around the frizzen toe and bottom of the pan.  The screw heads are not battered and worn, and the frizzen face is hardly scarred.  I also guess from the photo that the frizzen face is soled...at the upper tip I think I see a joint line.  If it's a replacement, it sure is a good one.
Just a remarkable and great rifle.

[G-Man]

I am going to guess that the triggers are single acting set triggers...the front trigger is far too far away from the sear bar to be effective as a firing unset trigger.

That is typical on southern mountain rifles as well - usually they are made to only function set.

Guy

[Bill of the 45th]

I'm guessing Cumberland Gap area.  That area North Tennessee, Virginia, and kentucky.  I agree early, like right at the turn of the century, though the lock seems a bit later.  Love the lock.

Bill

[WElliott]

Taylor and Guy, you are correct, the rear trigger is a set trigger only, and the rear trigger must be set for the lock to hold in cocked position.
It does not appear that the frizzen has been resoled.
When the lock bolts are tightened, they pull the lock slightly toward the top of the mortise.  Without the bolts in place, the lock lies in the mortise nicely with only a slight margin all around.
Looks like normal wear to me.

[VP]

Wayne,

I know nothing about the gun except that it is a real "looker". I love it. A great find for you.

Van

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What's it weigh?

[WElliott]

about 9 lbs.

[WElliott]

To follow Northern Wayne's recommendation, here is an hypothesis to consider:  Immediately following the Revolutionary War, upcountry Georgia was quickly populated by folks moving down from Virginia and the Carolinas.  From at least 1794 until after the 1820 census, a gunsmith by the name of John Bailes worked in Warren County, Georgia, to the west of Augusta.  Perhaps "JB" trained in SW Virginia but practiced his trade in Warren County, Georgia.  The slight Roman nose buttstock does, after all, appear in work by other Georgia makers.  Works for me.     

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

How about John Beauchamp 1788-  (JB)    He was a gubnsmith originally from Maryland  in Dekalb County..the first white man to own Stone Mountain

[WElliott]

Now you're talking, Tim! 
What shall we name the JB school?