Cost Effectiveness

[northmn]

An interesting point was brought up in Fantasy Rifles about the cost effectiveness of casting your own hardware.  Its an interesting subject to me as their are several things one can look at as being cost effective, from casting your own buttplates and trigger guards to forging your own like some of the Southern builders do, cutting your own inlays vs buying, making parts such as triggers etc.  The question can even be applied to casting your own round ball and building from scratch vs. kits.
Some things are admittedly not done in a cost effective manner because we want originality or to copy something that is not available otherwise.  Some things are more fun.  Some are habits.  Also we make some parts just so we can afford the hobby.  One habit I have gotten into is making breechplugs as the old Douglas barrels that I started on required indexing for runout.  I stated for instance that I could not see the cost in setting up a casting system to make parts, which as usual was answered by someone who does   For me I look at the payback of the foundry as well as the cost of parts and materials.  I quit casting ball a while back because until recently I had no source for pure lead.  I just bought enough that should last me quite a while.  But even so, buying ball for a 40 cal or smaller is pretty inexpensive.  I was looking at a mold for my 20 bore, but can buy about 200 595 ball for the cost of the mold alone.  Probably the most cost effective thing to do would be to hire a pro to build my guns, but again there is the fun factor.  There is also the tedium factor and time factor as in I do not want to take the time to make this part as I want to shoot the thing pretty soon (called the utility factor)

DP

[Mike Brooks]

I get most of my brass cast locally these days. generally cheaper than I can buy brass mounts else where.

[Red Owl]

I think there a greater sense of accomplishment when as many parts as possible are made from scratch.  There is another aspect to it as well and that is that the part then fits Your project rather than modifying your project to fit the part. On the gun I'm building right now- which is actually a learning experience- I'm making everything but the butt plate, trigger guard.

[Captchee]

 Well were not really talking about casting RB here  .
 However since  you brought it up .  I  shoot  near 100  in a couple weeks . A box of hornady’s  runs us near 14.00 here now. To me that’s totally un acceptable for the amount of shooting I do .
Also . Im sorry if in some way I insulted you . I wasn’t trying to do that . I just wanted to point out that doing your own castings  isn’t as expensive as what many believe

 But lets get back to the subject I alluded to   in the other post
 Lets say a TG costs 19-35 .00  .
  As I  said , if you only going to need 1 or 2 that’s one thing . But again we should remember that your buying someone else work  and your locked into a given set of the more popular  designs .  Also your going to get   what ever quality may be available .

 Now lets say your building  for a customer . Your going to pass that base cost  +time and labor to clean the castings up  on to the customer .
 Now the base cost  if you  purchase a  foundry kit . Will run you around 425.00 with  shipping .
 That kit provides everything you need . Furnace , copes , drags , crucibles  green sand . The whole bit .
 All you will need is a propane tank  and to make your patterns.
 one can also make thier own small foundry relitivly cheep .

 You now can melt to liquid   most everything right up to the temperature of  cast iron  .
 So gold , silver , copper ……. Basically anything under a melting temp of 2300 deg , within around 20 minutes . With the right sand you can even get detail as fine as a thumb print .  On top of that it basically takes no longer to case  10  of the same trigger guard then it takes to cast 1 .
Top that of ,the material is totally re usable . So if you do get a bad casting . Which can happens  when your just starting out . You just put it back into the crucible and melt it back down
 Now lets say you want yellow brass . NOT the red brass that so commonly sold  . Not an issue . You can have all the yellow brass one needs with a shot trip out to an area where  folks shoot a lot . Warning , just make sure you remove all the primers .
 Or you can learn  the process of making  yellow brass . Or what  the difference is between red and yellow brass .
Not to mention  For the cost of one TG I can by enough yellow or red brass from the  scrap yard  to make 5 or 6 TG  in one pour .

 Now here is another Plus .  Once you have made your wood  pattern . You can cast that in any  material you want . Pewter , silver , gold , German silver .
 IE no more ,. Sorry we are out of stock  or  waiting  months for the item to actually get to you . And because you have  the actual pattern you always have   part available to you .

 Also   unlike a ball mould . Your not locked into making a single item . You can make virtually anything  you want . I have  cast  plaques for car clubs .  Hard to find parts for tractors and  antique cars , novelty items . Even trinkets and awards for clubs . My little foundry set up paid for itself in the first year .

 Now that’s not to say its easy .  Its not like casting lead . You have to learn  how each different metal  works .  while lead my burn you  if your stupid .  Casting higher temp metal can kill you or put you in a wheel chair .
 Where a drip of lead may  give you a  good burn and blister  if it hits your skin .  That same drip in brass will burn all the way to the bone before you can say “@#$%.. You have to keep your mind about you
Casting isn’t for everyone . But if  a person is building a lot of  a given piece or is needing unique pieces  IMO its well worth the money spent .  If the above case is  what is needed , its very cost effective  and opens up a whole new realm of possibilities as to what a person can do

Here is a link to the  foundry set up I have .
 The retailer also has other links on their web page showing what can be done

http://www.foundry101.com/

  
 i own the model L fernace found here
http://www.foundry101.com/search.htm

[northmn]

I was far from insulted I was intrigued and I am sorry you thought I was insulted.  It just got my mind going on what motivates us to do the things we do on these builds.  As you said you can also do other things with the foundry.  i am really surprised it was as inexpensive as you mentioned at $425.  I have done some foundry work at that level and found it interesting, but making the pattern is also time consuming if you want to make something different.  I have nothing but respect for those of you that lierally "scratch build".  And I admit I would not build enough to warrant a foundry set up like you said.  I do a lot of things that are not "cost effective" when I consider my time, and sometimes buy something instead of making it depending on my motivation.  I have made triggers and trigger plates, I cannot buy a front sight I like so I make one, but generally buy a rear sight as I am too lazy to make them for thier cost.  I just received some oval steel escutions for a half stock which at 55 cents apiece seemed to be not worth making, but I was ordering something else at the time.  Like I said this to me is a very interesting topic on what tends to motivate some of us.  I only build from a blank for instance and do my own inletting and drilling for the barrel and ramrod.

DP

[smart dog]

Hi Northmn,
Obviously a lot depends on what you are building, your skill level, and your objectives (fun or work).  In my case, I do not build to sell and I build some unusual pieces (16th and 17th century guns) for which there are very limited commercial choices for hardware.  I have to make a lot of things from scratch.  However, at my current skill level, I can turn out many parts by hand with a welding torch, saw, files, hammer, jigs, and polishing tools faster and cheaper than I could buy, reshape, and finish commercial castings or other products.  The list includes triggers, triggerplates, toe plates, sideplates, all escutcheons and inlays, patchboxes, all springs, all bolts, muzzlecaps, ramrod thimbles, sights, and ramrod tips.  I also use the Delft clay casting system to make small parts (up to side plates) from brass and silver.  The method is cheap on a small scale and does not take long to master.  Where I am slow and totally cost-ineffective is in the conception and research required for my projects, and then the shaping and fitting of the stocks because I fuss so much about form, function, and details.  I take forever contemplating tasks during the building process but once I start a job, it goes very fast.  

dave

[Captchee]

Making patterns isn’t  all that hard  once you learn the rules .
 If  I need a pattern for something that im going to use  more then once . Ill carve it out of wood . But if its something im only going to want 1 of  or am not sure I  ill like . I make it out of blue foam . If  it ends  up being something I figure ill use again . I then  use that casting  to cast another duplicate  out of either the same material or aluminum . That duplicate then becomes my pattern. It all depends on what one is wanting to do   or how  they want to go about it .
 If a person was so inclined they could do everything  from building the foundry to making the patterns in a period way .  Really up to the person . The end result of the piece is the same .  What is different is the experience and the knowledge .

 I also think if  what we do  was only about being cost effective . Frankly we would not do it .

[heinz]

Captchee, thanks for sharing that website.  Very slick outfit.  And if you have a forge, you can get by without the furnace.

Still ROTFL on your last words on cost effectiveness :-)

[roundball]

I chuckle the same way when I hear a fellow hunter seriously rationalizing his expenditures because he gets "free" venison 

[smart dog]

Hi Roundball,
You are so right!!!

dave

[Acer Saccharum]

There ain't nothin cost effective about making your own hardware.

$20 to 30 for a guard from the catalog, vs $1200 to make your own patterns and have the parts cast, etc. Maybe you could do it if your time was worth ten cents an hour.

But I seldom care about cost effective, since I do this gunbuilding for the love of it, and the challenge.

[smart dog]

Hi Tom,
That is true only if you can get what you want from commercial suppliers, which I often cannot.  The other problem for me is they usually want to charge a horrendous amount for shipping to Alaska via Fed Ex or UPS despite the fact that USPS priority mail is available to us for very reasonable rates.  Then I usually have to modify and clean up the part to meet my needs, which often takes longer than making it from scratch. 

dave

[northmn]

I remember one contributer that could do fantastic engraving and carving.  His guns sold for about the price of a car.  Jerry mentioned that he could not afford to make a gun for himself and hunted with a Lyman Great Plains rifle.  Business wise that makes sense, but i do kind of like to make my own.  I got burnt out once making guns for others and prefer to putter around and make them for myself.  There is also a term called utility cost, where one may pay more for quicker use.  Were I to sell my jinxed 54, for instance, I may desire to purchase a kit at this time of year just to have something to hunt with as I would not finish a blank by deer season.  Kind of like an uncle my wife had that waited about three years to get a snow blower at his price.  He shoveled a lot of snow in the meantime. Making patchboxes is another area where I do not buy as I like to use fairly heavy metal on them.

DP

[Captchee]

LMAO  ya jerry does use a lyman rifle .
 and jerry , i know your reading this . LOL
 dont for get i kicked you backside good at the last shoot .  even considering that exstra shot  you took  after crying about not being ready LOL

again yes jerry shoots a Lyman rifle
 but IMO thats becouse  what he makes is  for the most part so dang nice a person is scared to shoot it .
 but i can also tell you this . jerry makes a whole lot of everything he uses  if not most all of it .
 the gold you see  on his rifles he goes out  and pans for "or did"
 he does alot of his own castings as well . all that silver work . the Tg and butt plates . all his work
 the wire he rolls or draws himself
  in his shop he has furnaces for casting , tempering as well as brasing .
what you see is  for the most part becouse he has made it .

[northmn]

If I had his craftsmanship I would consider all that effort to.  Also he has developed a well deserved reputation or the Name if you will, which is a factor.  There are others whose work I admire on this site also.  A while back they made the very good point that it does not pay very well to make plain rifles which I also understand.  My last poor boy for instance, I made it to shoot squirrels with and not to impress anyone.  I more or less showed pictures of it just to play with the camera and to post.  It would bring a lot less per hour of work than a well enhanced Pennsylvania.  Acer had been working on a Jaeger, don't remember if I have seen it finished?  Engraving was quite interesting.   Now that I have been getting guns to shoot and have gotten back into building, I doubt if I will build anything as plain as the poor boy anymore.  Had about a 15-20 year layoff and feel I am getting some feel for what I am doing back again.  While I am not looking at resale value, its still nice to be able to look at them when they hang on the wall.  The rifle is really only about half done at the poor boy level.  Patchboxes, carving, and engraving seem to have an excellent payback.

DP

[Jim Kibler]

A plain rifle can be a thing of beauty and can certainly pay if well designed and built.  A highly decorated and elaborate rifle should just be a well built plain rifle taken a little further.  Oftentimes you will see an over the top decorated rifle which lacks the fundamental design structure to make a great rifle.  Those with untrained eyes often can't see the difference.  A highly decorated rifle that is well designed, often doesn't look too elaborate since everything is in harmony.  My point in a nutshell is this.  Good guns of any type can be an artistic success,  can be desirable and pay appropriately.  Lesser work with a bit of bling may fool the uneducated.

[northmn]

Its been stated before that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.  The basic underlying gun has to be well designed.  Sometimes I think that if you have a nice peice of wood you can cover up too much of it.  For looks I think, up to a point, dollars are well spent on wood but I ahve seen some excellent plain guns.  Somehow, for instance, a Hawken seems to look over done to me with a really curly stock.  They were built that way but but many were walnut and plain maple.  My tastes and others will differ.

DP

[Captchee]

imo today we  look to much a figure and not on true quality of wood . good hard wood  will produce a quality piece even without bling .
 As to an experienced person being able tell  good from bad .
 Like everything else . If you put two experienced people alone  in a room with the others work . Both will find  things they would have done differently .
 However a truly experienced person will realize that the piece is not his work . He has no idea  of the  why or reasoning behind what he doesn’t like .

[44-henry]

Brass has some nasty properties when you melt it that aren't great for your health, something to consider if you intend to do a lot of it in less than ideal situations. That being said, I've made it a point to purchase all the scrap brass ornaments that come up for sale at the garage sales and thrift stores in these parts.

[Jim Kibler]

You can get sick if you breathe too much zinc fumes from the brass.  I've heard this refered to as the "zinc chills".  From what I gather, this is only a temporary condition and has no long term consequences.  The simple solution is to melt in a well ventilated area.

[Captchee]

You can get sick if you breathe too much zinc fumes from the brass.  I've heard this refered to as the "zinc chills".  From what I gather, this is only a temporary condition and has no long term consequences.  The simple solution is to melt in a well ventilated area.

 yep  this is true . . just  melt it out side and dont put your face over the vent

[44-henry]

You can get sick if you breathe too much zinc fumes from the brass.  I've heard this refered to as the "zinc chills".  From what I gather, this is only a temporary condition and has no long term consequences.  The simple solution is to melt in a well ventilated area.

I did onece get the so called fever when I was melting brass inside our shop that I thought had adequate ventilation, since then I am very cautious when dealing with the stuff. The following website talks a lot about the effects of zinc poisioning and it certainly sounds like it has the potential for long term damage and even death in extreme instances.

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/index.htm

[Jim Kibler]

I did a quick search and found this on zinc fumes and the "zinc chills".  http://www.periodictable.com/ZincSafety.html  The inforation I recalled was from a foundry class I took while in college.  I'm no expert, but this information indicates sickness from zinc fumes is a temporary condition and has no long lasting effects.  Too much of anything will kill you, even water.

[northmn]

As stated, you have to build a few rifles to cast your own buttplates and triggerguards unless you want a foundry for other things.  Part of the cost is the learning curve and how to avoid getting sick as well as just using the system.  Its kind of like building a few rifles before you really start getting the hang of things.  Isn't all bad for beginners to start out with kits.

DP

[Pete G.]

The zinc poisoning sounds like what the shipyard welders describe as a result of welding on galvanized metal. Their recommendation is to drink a large amount of milk. May be an old wive's tale (of which there are many in a shipyard) but if you truly believe something works, it usually does, at least to some extent.