Author Topic: Moravian Book Review  (Read 12668 times)

jwh1947

  • Guest
Moravian Book Review
« on: July 25, 2010, 06:40:48 AM »
HIB recently gave me the idea of reviewing the book.  I never would have been so presumptuous to suggest such a venture, but, dang, I think his notion is a worthy one, warranting a response.  But, I'll keep it short.  Just got the book this afternoon and this comes after the first reaction to a hasty read. 

First, it is well written, succinct and thorough in its analysis of a narrow slice of American gunmaking history.  Most quaint, but when I had my book published by the same company (albeit mergers and buy-outs) I had a sentence in there that paid homage to the Moravians who did this gun work, but it was stricken by the editors as appearing to be ethnocentric and biased.  I am glad to see that the subject has been fleshed out in an appropriate manner, for gunmaking was truly an area in which the Moravians contributed more than would be logically expected from their comparative numbers.

Many of the specimens are attributions, but tend to be the ones for which support is strong.  Most of the informed would likely not question these attributions, or at least a big majority of them, so it is not a problem.

I am glad that the authors found it fit to include the "Graeff" signature on page 135.  I can't say too much, for the same specimen was used in my book as a Graeff product, other than to say that the signature is hard to read and has been printed up otherwise.  None other than Dr. George Shumway, a respectable researcher, presents the same specimen in his Rifles of Colonial America, Vol. II, pp. 384-387. as a J. Orre rifle.   He was probably swayed his way because he wanted to find a new gunsmith; maybe we were biased because we needed a Lancaster specimen.  Judge for yourself; either is a stretch.  You are not missing anything in the photo; it is a great shot.

Of most significance to builders and students of the long rifle may be the following point.  Look at those brass patch boxes.  Note how many have lids that are hinged on the bottom and flip down.  I would think that this feature appears more often than many would anticipate.  This could almost be considered to be a hallmark or classic feature of these early guns.

Following and understanding the missions of the Moravians as well as the interaction among the various tight communities is essential knowledge if one wishes to understand the big picture of early Pennsylvania and North Carolina guns.  This book serves that purpose with distinction.  It has a place in any rifleman's bookcase.   Get one before they sell out.  If I am not mistaken, KRA members have until August 12 to secure their copy, then general public can have at the remaining few hundred.  There aren't that many.  Don't procrastinate.  Wayne

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6491
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 09:12:00 PM »
In 1735 a group of Moravians came to Savannah GA and settled on 50 acres provided by Oglethorpe in the new city. over the years many moved to PA and NC including one John Beck in 1745. Others came in the 1750s.  At the sametime a group of Salzburghers settled in Ebenezer GA.

Has anyone found any evidencce of gunmakers being included in these groups??? They would certainly be among the first gun builders in the Colony of GA.

De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 02:59:34 AM »
Beck is a common name here in central PA.   If I am not mistaken, our J. P. Beck is interred in the Lutheran Cemetery, Lebanon, PA.  He could have been a converted Moravian (Protestant to Protestant) or our boy could have been of another gene pool.  Who knows, perhaps he married a Lutheran girl and she made a "liberal" out of him.


Offline Telgan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 01:23:17 PM »
I picked up the book at Dixons over the weekend and have not had much time to spend with it yet. In flipping through it last night, I found that pages 8, 10, and 46 were completely blank. Is this the case in any one elses copy, or just mine? Hopefully mine is not a flawed copy.

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 03:46:16 PM »
I have flipped through my copy and do not remember any blank pages, but I'll check again.  I have read the introductory pages and some of the rifle descriptions.  It is a "must have " book IMHO for anyone interested in early rifle making in PA. I was a little surprised to see all the 'attributions' with little discussion about that--esp the controversial "Valentine Beck" rifle [Gusler, I believe contested by others].  But the photos are great and overall I give the author & publisher alot of credit for turning out a very nice book.

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 04:01:47 PM »
My copy has no blank pages.

I agree with what others have said here: this is a fantastic book. I am new to the world of gun research, but not to research on Moravians in eighteenth-century Pennsylvania--and I can only marvel at the extent and depth and quality of Bob Lienemann's research. His introductory essay is a substantial and significant contribution to a topic that seems to have been understudied: the intersection of gunmaking and Moravians in the eighteenth century. I realize, of course, that there have been brief studies of particular gunsmiths who were Moravian and, in regard to the Henrys, lengthier accounts. But the very focus of these studies prevent them, in effect, from doing what Bob L. has done here: account more generally for the importance of Moravian gunsmiths and training in Moravian settlements to the gunmaking trade/business in the eighteenth century.

I should note, too, that (as jwh1947 remarked in a recent post) a study is only as good as its sources. Bob Lienemann has made use of sources here (Moravian ones) that are inaccessible to most and (as they are contemporary congregational diaries or inventories) unimpeachable and unmatched in what they record.

I am very grateful that the KRA published such a superb book.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 04:02:46 PM by spgordon »
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline fm tim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 04:20:58 PM »
Mine has no blank pages

Ditto a great book with superlative photographs.

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 04:41:33 PM »
Mine does have those pages blank.  Note:  printers' error books bring a premium in years to come.  Someone with the pages...please tell us what we are missing.  :D

Also, RifleResearcher, please tell those interested in Moravian culture something about the quaint "blue box."  You have the knowledge and perhaps some documentation.   ::)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 04:46:24 PM by jwh1947 »

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18151
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
 
Quote
I found that pages 8, 10, and 46 were completely blank. Is this the case in any one elses copy, or just mine? Hopefully mine is not a flawed copy.
Mine has several blank pages. I am not sure which ones they are and am too lazy to go upstairs and look. Maybe they will be collectors items!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Michael

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »
The book is outstanding! I got my copy at Dixon's on Friday within 30 minutes of getting there, didn't want to miss out because they were all sold out.  I like reading the inventories for the gun shop and the cost of locks, stocks, mounts and barrels. I noticed that rifle barrels are listed in almost all the inventories but RIFLED barrels are noted separately and at a higher cost.

Outstanding Book!

I went through my copy and did not find any blank pages.

Michael

Offline Telgan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 06:33:20 PM »
Who do we get in touch with, about a copy that has blank pages?

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 07:39:58 PM »
one intersting list was from the end of the F&IWar [1762? don't have book with me] that showed the gunshop--a modest one--had over 300 stock blanks on site.  About half were maple, most of the rest walnut and a few were birch--interesting number, I'm guessing the war brought on a demand for guns...

Offline rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16887
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 09:30:09 PM »
For me this was one of the most provocative books ever published on the longrifle, made possible by study of a community which kept great records and had profound influences on the early development of the longrifle in Pennsylvania and in North Carolina. The story line encompasses many changes in the way the Moravians lived, from their communal experiments through privatization of enterprises such as the gunmaking business.  The story focuses on events at Christians Spring primarily, and through that lens, we see the effects of changing times and economies, and how the Revolutionary War affected local gunmaking enterprises.  The effects of the rise of the Henry and other larger gunmaking shops or factories, and the dispersion of Christians Spring-trained gunsmiths to other locales where they probably influenced local styles of longrifles, are made clearer in this book.

For those who have not seen it but might order it, please note that there is no dimensional data useful for makers of longrifles.  About half the book is historical information, with entries from the Moravian records highlighed and interpreted.  I wish the Marshall rifle had made it into this book as it would be useful for comparison to several others.  The color photos are of very good quality.  Many construction details I would not have noticed are brought into focus in the photographs and description of the guns shown.  Without it in front of me, I'd say the book highlights about a dozen guns.
Andover, Vermont

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
BLANK PAGES re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 11:42:54 PM »
Hi all,

I just checked my copy--and it turns out that the pages that Tom Elgan indicated were blank in his copy (8, 10, 46) are blank in mine as well. But they are supposed to be blank: they are blank so that a new section can start on the recto (right hand) page as the book opens. Pages 8, 10, & 46 are blank, that is, but this is not a flaw: they're supposed to be this way.

Scott
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 01:01:57 AM »
Gentlemen,  Rest easy.  Pages 8,10 and 46 were intended to be blank and are the result of the Recto standard in publishing where by new subjects are introduced on the first right hand page after the last subject has concluded. The easiest example to follow is where page 45 ends a topic and page 47 starts a new one.
It appears that the first half of the book followed the Recto standard. It also appears the second half made full use of all available pages in order to place as many photos as possible in the available pages. The final editing mixed the two standards.

I will pay handsomely for copies with printing on pages 8,10 and 46. Regards to all, HIB

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 01:36:23 AM »
Hey, more uncommon information from bigmouth...a tiny number (50 total, corrected thanks to Henry) of leather bound copies were knocked off on top of the standard edition and they are available for somewhere around $125, I recall.  Call Lubenesky at Jacobsburg and he should be able to set you up.  Wayne
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 05:02:39 AM by jwh1947 »

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 02:07:10 AM »
Thank you Wayne.  The leather edition was limited to 50 copies and will be available at the CLA show and from the Roswell, GA address in the ad posted on the ALR site after the CLA show. There are less than 30 copies left as of this date.  The price is $120 plus 12.50 shipping and applicable tax. Advanced orders are welcome but delivery may not be available until the last week in August.  There are a few in Pa. if needed quickly. Contact me directly  for futher info.    HIB

Offline Karl Kunkel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 881
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 04:39:31 AM »
Picked mine up First thing Friday also.  Just peeled the plastic wrapper last night.  Slowly savoring.
Kunk

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM »
OK...what starts on page 9?  Nothing.  The next chapter begins on page 11, so blank 10 makes sense, not blank 8.  One of three appears to be an error...printer speaking.  You brought this trivia up, not me. 

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 01:48:07 PM »
The Table of Contents lays it all out. The photos of Christian's Spring constitutes the first section (ends on a verso [left hand side page], so no need for a blank page). The Gemein House Door Lock is the next item: it takes up only a recto, so the verso is blank [p. 8] so that the next item, the Oerter receipt, can begin on a recto. The Oerter receipt also takes up only a recto, so the verso is blank [p. 10] so that the next item, Bob L's chapter, can begin on a recto: p. 11. 
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

RifleBarrelGun

  • Guest
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 09:07:59 PM »

Wonderful book with great pictures and interesting, thought-provoking discussion.

One "complaint":  no footnotes giving citations for the original documents quoted in the introduction- unless I missed something.

Scott

Offline eastwind

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2010, 05:38:36 PM »
As publisher and I might add designer and the one who coordinated the printing of the book---I have to comment on the so-called blank pages in the Moravian Gunmaking book.

Pages 8, 10 and 46 and even page 143 are indeed intended to be blank. These are called "readers breaks" - selected pages or places where the reader knows something has changed in the flow of the book and therefore takes notice of a change, such a new chapter. Generally blank pages are used more in the front and the back of the book. The breaks can be on a right or left hand page or for that matter on the same page in which case we would outline the item or put it off to the side- called a "sidebar". Lienemann's section is filled with such breaks like the inventories boxed in color. Had these simply run throughout the text and look the same as the text readers would have been lost.  For those of you fortunate enough  ;D to have my book BERKS COUNTY LONG RIFLES, published last year, you will note about a dozen blank pages to break the reader's chain of thought.



But I'm more concerned with those of you (3-4 members) who state you have NO blank pages in your books. Please check again and tell me if you have No blank pages as this is something the printer should be aware of.

While I'm at it, I should mention that some have questioned the lack of other Moravian guns extant (such as the Marshall rifle) that were not included in the book. Throughout the book we have mentioned that the book only included guns shown at the 2007 KRA Display and only one other gun (the Antes at the Kansas State Historical Society) was physically not in the display, however a large photo presentation of that gun was in the KRA show and because the gun is somewhat unique it was added to the book.



Please let me know if you have anything on any of the blank pages mentioned.

Patrick Hornberger
EASTWIND PUBLISHING
eastwind@hughes.net
Patrick Hornberger

Offline rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16887
Re: Moravian Book Review
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2010, 08:25:09 PM »
The design of the book is excellent and up to date; that was my immediate impression, and I saw no flaws and my attention was not diverted by blank pages (didn't notice, to tell the truth).  I've learned just a little from my daughter who does graphic design and layout for books; just enough to appreciate many aspects of the presentation.  The interweaving of text and highlighted Moravian records and photos of the rifles is very well done.  I look forward to showing it to my daughter, and for once, to not have her wince at one of my "gun books".

My comments about the Marshall rifle should have been " it is unfortunate the Marshall rifle or new, high quality photos of it were not available for that showing."
Andover, Vermont