Author Topic: What makes a great rifle?  (Read 27652 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2010, 10:42:30 PM »
Robby,

If you like a rifle enough to consider it great there's nothing wrong with that.  It is no doubt somewhat subjective.   As time passes people gain experience their tastes likely will change change and grow.  For me the idea of this is not to categorize guns, but just to try to understand what it is about some of them that creates such an appeal.

Jim

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2010, 12:21:33 AM »
Quite a thought provoking thread indeed.  I operated a Muzzle-loading/Antique gun shop for 31 years and had thousands of guns pass thru during that time.  When I think back to the few that raised the hackles on the back of my neck as I was about  to pick them up, they all had many of the same qualities despite being entirely different in terms of age, style and function.
All of these were of highest quality, technically advanced for their respective period, reflected a certain avant-garde innovative quality within the restraints of period convention and probably most importantly had a presence that suggested the craftsmen who made them did so effortlessly.
Jim Westberg

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2010, 05:08:02 AM »
Big Bat,

You may have misunderstood my post...I agree that the rifle has to have a "soul" and give one that good feeling every time you pick it up. There's nothing better than an artistically/historically correct rifle, with great lines and that old-time feeling...that will break them in the same hole at 60 yards.

"All you need is one good shooter...?" Not me. I want them all to be good shooters...and I want more than just one.

Steve

Offline bgf

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2010, 07:24:42 AM »
Jim,
Let's try a thought experiment:  Make an exact copy of the Davidson rifle (a randomly chosen "great" rifle, at least for me) -- I know that you could do it as close to perfectly as anyone.  How much "soul" is expressed in the copy?  Whose soul is it?  Did recreating his finish level and tooling marks make you able to create a "great" rifle? 

Now, show the copy to two people: one who has seen the Davidson, another who has not but is likely to appreciate it.  What will their reactions likely be?   Reveal the fact that it is a copy; how do their reactions change?

Honestly, I don't know what this will show, but it seems an interesting line of thought.  Part of me thinks such things as "soul" at least in art objects is pure malarkey, an incomplete understanding of mutliple complex factors; the other part knows that no amount of training or study will enable just anyone to write, e.g., a great symphony.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2010, 01:42:31 PM »
Also keep in mind many , many people have no ability to tell they difference between a really good gun and a really bad gun. Seen it many times on the muzzleloadingforum.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2010, 03:22:22 PM »
Jim.....you have opened a giant can of worms.      A great rifle means many things to many people.   What some people
consider to be a great gun might make me vo........     I would like to open another subject......what is "soul"......how do
you define it, and how do you build a gun with it....???      I have a "great" gun, built by Bob Harn from a Chambers Early
lancaster stock.     I also have a Dave Dodd's rifle, kind of a copy of a Wolfgang Haga.....this was my hunting rifle and holds, feels, and shoots great, so in a sense this to me is a great gun.   To me, you could show me the fanciest Lehigh rifle,  such as the Nicholas Hawk recently built by Bill Shipman.   While it is a beautiful, superbly well done rifle, in my
category if could never be a "great" gun.    To me, Lehighs are awkward to hold.   Being a trap shooter, you can't just throw one up and have it feel good.....you kind of have to get "into" it.    So, this subject of "great", and "soul" are very
subjective things....they mean different things to different people.   By the way Jim, I could live with most of the guns that
you have built, love your stuff.................Don

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2010, 03:37:15 PM »
Regarding soul: I can see that finish plays a part in it but I have been thrilled by black and white pictures of many guns which screamed "great" to me before I could see them in color or look at the texture much. First time I saw "RCA 42" in Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850, I about flipped. Based on this I'd conclude that for me, the finish and texture are secondary to architecture and decoration.
Andover, Vermont

SPG

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2010, 04:45:13 PM »
Gentlemen,

To me, in order for a rifle to acquire "soul" I have to live with it for a while. It has to go on some scouts, knock over a buck, go down a few trails. When I look at it afterwards I remember those experiences with that rifle. I think that this is what is so great about vintage rifles...one imagines the things it has done and the places it has been.

Style, lines, finish...all these things need to be right in order to have a great rifle. Soul comes from use. Not to push any buttons but this is why I personally don't care for "aged" rifles. I want the soul in the rifle to be from honest use, not contrived wear.

By the way, if Bill Shipman is wanting more soul put into that Nicholas Hawk I would be more than happy to oblige.

Steve

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2010, 05:02:41 PM »
Some thoughts:  

A gun with Soul in some way embodies or expresses the spirit/essence of it's builder.... we can experience this unique authenticity. I think for our purposes it also embodies or expresses the quintessence of the American Long Rifle in one of its variations.......... One could build a modern gun with Soul.... but it would not embody or express the quintessence of the American Long Rifle......

What are the defining characteristic ( that express the spirit/essence/quintessence) of the ALR??

Hand made
Sculpted architecture with few straight or parallel lines - looks like we expect and ALR to look (Consensus of knowledgeable/experienced collectors/builders)
baroque to rococo carving and engraving
low open sights
long barrels
sidelock?
slender/thin wood at least from the breech forward
well balanced visually and physically
effective aging adds romance... "this gun was used to feed a family, free a nation,...etc..."
attention to detail of fit and finish....

So make additions, deletions or distortions to this list..... Think of things a builder can do to help insure the rifle he/she is building will be a "great" rifle........
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2010, 05:44:38 PM »
 

A gun with Soul in some way embodies or expresses the spirit/essence of it's builder....

This truly sums up soul. ( at least the way I think of it & what Mike referred to early on)
Thank you DrTim!

Jim
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2010, 08:55:36 PM »
Also keep in mind many , many people have no ability to tell they difference between a really good gun and a really bad gun. Seen it many times on the muzzleloadingforum.

Boy did you nail it with that statement.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline bama

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2010, 06:02:51 AM »
Jim what a great question. I can tell for for me I can see it in a rifle from a distance. All I have do have is a peek and if it snaps my head around then it has the right stuff. As far as originals go I have very limited experience because I have only handled a few but they are great rifles. I top the list with rifle No. 42. This rifle has handles and shoulders like a dream. When you bring it shoulder the sights line up perfectly and then it just hangs there solid as a rock. You get the feeling that the shot from this rifle is going where you want it to go. I have held a few other originals and they were all impressive but none have left me as speechless as rifle No. 42. It is not overly ornate, it is mostly all business but has that beauty that just draws you eye to it in a way that makes you never want to leave it.

I think it takes time for a rifle to develop real soul. There are several builders today that build wonderfully aged rifles that have a great look but they have not developed the soul that is obtained by being used and cared for over time. I had a chance to see a pair of rifles that I built for a couple about 10 years ago. They both deer hunted with my rifles and had taken many deer with them. These rifles would not hold a candle to the work by builders on this board but the rifles had began to obtain the look of the well used but cared for rifles of yesterday. They had begun to develop soul.

I think that there are many rifles being built today that will be the collected rifles 200 years from now. Those collector's will be saying some of the same things about the master gunsmiths that are posting on this board today as we do about the masters of yesterday.

I just hope a few of my rifles find their way into the hands of those that will use them and care for them and give them soul.
Jim Parker

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2010, 02:53:11 PM »
A couple years ago at Friendship I had the pleasure of firing a most elegant rifle in the woods walk. David Price and I were planning the walk when he asked me what I would be shooting.  After my reply he asked, "Why don't you shoot mine?"  I stammered a bit and finally got out, "Hxll yes!".  Besides being the most highly decorated rifle I had ever shot, it functioned beautifully, and handled like a dream.  It fit the category of a great rifle.  Perhaps the most fun was that it came from a friend.  The relationship between you and the friend who made the rifle often turns a fine rifle into the "great" one.  Just another opinion.

Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2010, 03:02:47 PM »
No matter how great the art, the meaning is in the people........... the art is it's reflection!
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Offline Mike New

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2010, 01:52:47 AM »
WOW!! What a topic!
     Many posts mention "Soul". Several have tried to describe this but I believe this "Soul " is in each of us. Often the questions come up " Why were the barrels so long?" Why use curly maple?" Why carving, engraving and inlets?'' The answers are within. Would you consider some one from 225 years ago who liked a Dickert, Beck, Sheetz or Haga be like minded as some of us today?
     A great rifle can answer these questions. Can she go back in time and represent the time period she is from? Can she be used as a tool everyday? Can her art be admired by men who saw, touched, fired and cleaned rifles everyday as a matter of life or death? True art transends generations. Just as rifles from 200+ years ago "speak" to us our rifles should whisper the same message to them.
 Mike S. New

Offline Pete G.

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2010, 02:59:52 AM »
One of the things a great rifle does is to capture the imagination. Almost forty years ago I bought a Euroarms percussion rifle that was a great rifle because it stirred the imagination and got me started on this pathway we all share. No matter how many times I have strayed away to other types of guns, I always come back to the longrifle. That particular rifle today would not rate a second glance, but it opened the door for me. I guess the answer to "What makes a great rifle?" ...The first one.

Todd

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2010, 07:03:43 AM »
Reading through this thread makes me flash on a line from Dante's Inferno:-- "Midway through my wanderings, I was aware that I had strayed into a dark forest.  And 'Lo, there was no escape".

Or at least no consensus.  But then, how could there be?  If one is trying to talk about the ineffable in work then and now across a span of two or three centuries.

As I try to find my own voice in ths, several people have expressed the very provocative thought that perhaps "greatness" is a quality or attribute that's acquired over time and through use in the years after the initial building of the gun.  Others have mentioned the role of intentionality on the part of the maker who's consciously infusing the work with certain qualities as it's being put together while still on the bench.  Then a bunch of other observations mention the critical importance of getting the parts "right" in terms of architecture, balance, all the stuff required for functionality, "fitness for purpose", etc.

   

Todd

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Re: What makes a great rifle?
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2010, 10:01:04 AM »
Continuing with my 2 cents,-- I think there are a lot of things in the "necessary but not sufficient" category when trying to identify what makes a gun truly exceptional.  One can round up all the usual suspects, from "correctness" to craftsmanship, and still not quite get it.  After all the other dimensions of a gun are "right" in a more or less technical sense, it seems to me that, in the end, the gun has to be about itself, not its maker's ego.  It has to possess a certain "autonomy".  Meaning, all of its technical and aesthetic attributes are in the service of its reason for being as something that has to "work" while making sense to the eye and the mind.  It's not trying to slay me with self-conscious virtuosity in the way it's designed and assembled, or seduce me with a heavy decorative overlay on all the surfaces.  (Some current work that's patinated/distressed to within an inch of its life isn't necessarily any less sterile and devoid of "soul" than the work that looks like it was untouched by human hands.)  And it's certainly not jumping out at me first and foremost as someone's "signature" piece.

One of the most compelling intangibles with 18th Century American guns, for me, is the evident humility of the makers that one can sense in many of them.  Even the most stylistically exhuberant guns, the distinct minority, have qualities of restraint.  Even anonymity.  Whether it was because the maker was humbled by a sense of his place in the Great Chain of Being, or by the hardscrabble economics of an existence that kept him from going off the deep end into overwrought and time-consuming excess, the really exceptional guns have the feeling that their priorities, from functionality to aesthetics, have been kept straight.  And that the maker was working within a sense of limits in terms of both practicalities and propriety. 

The original work was taking place for reasons and within a world view that's largely vanished.  The question of what makes a great rifle is arguably becoming more difficult, not easier, to answer as we continue to get farther away in the 21st Century from an understanding of the priorities that made people tick in the 18th.