Barrel length ????

[SuperCracker]

Just curious. The GameCock gun got me thinking.

In areas where the hunting would have been thick when or how did barrels get long? By that I mean long enough to be unwieldy in the brush. I can see it in other areas where longer shots would have been the norm, but not really like say in S Ga where you would have been shooting across palmetto thickets and such.

Not trying to start an argument just curious. I was thinking if it were the early 19th century and I were living where my family lived then what kind of gun would I ask Higgins to make for me. I don't think it would have had a 40"+ barrel.

[Kermit]

For me, what seems to have been a "standard" at 42" is short.

[Darkhorse]

SuperCracker,
Having migrated from Central Fla. to Central Ga. I can tell you that I would have prefererred a 42" barrel as my go to gun because things were not as thick back then due to lack of timber harvest and limited clearing. You can see a long way in the native oak woods. 30 plus years ago when I hunted Fla. there were still a lot of places like that.
Now for my canoe gun (gotta have a canoe in Fla.) it would have had substantially shorter barrel. One I could also tuck under a cape or hunting shirt.
Just my pennies worth of opinion.

[rich pierce]

I agree we have a modern perspective when we think a gun with a 42" barrel is long.  Muskets and fowling guns and trade guns all had longer barrels throughout the 1700's.  I think an appreciation for short guns might have developed around the time of the rise of double barreled fowling guns.

I handled and shot a "cowboy action" carbine a couple weeks ago and it felt like a toy.  When I started hunting with muzzle loaders I started with a percussion halfstock and got used to that heft and length, and the fullstock flintlock was an adjustment.  But it got to be second nature.  Given that with a muzzle loader I am not going to take running shots at deer, I have not found longrifles to be a burden.  I have yet to do much grouse shooting though with a "long fowler".  That kind of cover could prove challenging.

[SuperCracker]

I agree we have a modern perspective when we think a gun with a 42" barrel is long.  Muskets and fowling guns and trade guns all had longer barrels throughout the 1700's.

I thought that too. But, if they're supposed to have evolved from Germanic Jaeger rifles with barrels in the 30" range the barrels had to grow here.

[skillman]

It is my understanding that they felt they needed a long barrel to burn the powder of the time. that may or may not have been true, but don't underestimate how strong style was.
You want to see underbrush? Come out here to western Washington. Still I use a 36 to 42 inch barrel. I also agree that I love my canoe gun.
Steve

[woodsrunner]

Jamie Levy would be the person to comment on what traditionally was used in Florida. He runs the state archaeological preservation/restoration lab and I promise you he has handled more original pieces turned up in Florida than anyone.
 
SuperCracker also makes a good point about things being more open back in the settlement times. Here in the Lower Coastal Plain of Florida and South Georgia the native ground cover traditionally was open pine forests composed mostly of Longleaf Pine. Lightning fires and Native Indian fires kept it that way. It wasn't until the 1930's and the introduction of state forestry fire control by Homo boobiensis that the woods became so thick that a short barrel was desirable. Prior to the 1930's the barrel lengths common in Pennsylvania and Virginia would have been no problem here.

[Dennis Glazener]

I can not help but wonder if the long barrels were favored for several reasons.

Long barrels were thought to shoot harder because more of the black powder burned. (this was still an accepted fact at least up into the 1970's. Most of the hunters in my area always wanted the long barrels for that reason)

Long barrels gave a longer sight radius and in theory better accuracy.

Long barrels could easily have the breech and/or the muzzle set back when they needed attention due to muzzle wear/crud buildup in the breech.

Long barrels "hang" better in off-hand shooting.

Part of the reason may have been traditional.

Dennis

[SuperCracker]

SuperCracker also makes a good point about things being more open back in the settlement times.

That was Darkhorse.

It honestly never occurred to me that the terrain would have been that fundamentally different back then.

hmmmmmmmm

[Levy]

I have to agree with everything that's been said so far.  The woods were more open back then and a long barrel might not have been as cumbersome as it is today.  Back in 2002 I worked on some guns that were recovered from a site in the Apalachicola River to the west of us here in Tallahassee.  Recovered were the barrels and locks from five R. Wilson (R*W), Type G Trade guns and one rifle barrel.  Our best estimation is that the guns dated to the 1760-70's time frame.  Two of the trade gun barrels were complete, one at 48" and the other at 28"(I've had these at the CLA Show in the past).  The 28 incher was probably shortened (well done) according in Wallace Gusler's opinion based on the spacing of the underlugs.  Since then, I've worked on 3 other Type G trade gun barrels that were complete and they measured from 46" - 49" in length.  The last 3 were loaded.   Of interest was the 38" swamped rifle barrel in .62 cal. that was found with them.  It appeared to be original length and had 3 rear sight placements, with the one farthest from the eye being used.  The twist was one turn in 48", with 7 furrows and a right hand twist.  I think the rifle was meant to fire the same size ball as the smoothbore Wilson trade guns.  I haven't seen many longrifle parts recovered archaeologically.  A Leman rifle barrel was found south of us in the St. Marks River along with a New England style rifle butt with the typical patchbox that comes to a sharp point (no side plates).  I believe the Silver River Museum has 2-3 rifles collected from rivers, but I haven't had a chance to study them.  A buttplate, sideplate, trigger, rr pipes and triggerguard were recovered from an Indian burial on the edge of Paynes's Prairie back in 1949.  The buttplate and the triggerguard  were a match with the early rifle that Wallace Gusler believes is Moravian from NC (I hope I got that right).  Wallace thought the parts were probably restocked.

James Levy

[SuperCracker]

Very interesting.

I'm seriously wanting to do a rifle somewhat like the GameCock gun but with a 36"ish barrel for the palmettos and swamps

[wmrike]

FWIW, years ago I compiled stats on 397 rifles described in various and sundry books.   The timeline is therefore a bit of a moving target, but the average barrel length was 43.53"  I was somewhat surprised to see that the average caliber was a tick over 0.49"

[Michael]

I have often wondered if the length of the trade gun barrels IE: 3', 3 1/2', 4 ' and 5' had any influence on the length of guns made here in the colony's?

[Mike Brooks]

I have often wondered if the length of the trade gun barrels IE: 3', 3 1/2', 4 ' and 5' had any influence on the length of guns made here in the colony's?

I believe so.

I have hunted with guns with barrels up to 60" and found no real problems getting them through the woods. If the brush is so thick you have to use a stubby gun I would find a new place to hunt...or get a good dog to go through the brush for you.

[J.D.]

If the brush is so thick you have to use a stubby gun I would find a new place to hunt...or get a good dog to go through the brush for you.

...Or a trusting wife. Just be careful where you shoot.   

God bless

[whitebear]

Yeah don't shoot the dog!

[Mike Brooks]

There are several things we don't do when hunting with these guns like the old timers did. Use of dogs and use of horses/mules. Completely changes the whole game when you use those animals

[SuperCracker]

If the brush is so thick you have to use a stubby gun I would find a new place to hunt...or get a good dog to go through the brush for you.

I go where the pigs go.   

FWIW, I have horses and if there were more places appropriate and legal for hunting off of horseback you can believe I'd be training one for it. Running hog dogs from horseback would ROCK!

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Have you ever fired your ML from horseback??

[SuperCracker]

In the immortal words of my grandfather

"Sure, you can shoot a gun off of him, you just better not shoot on him" hahaha 

No, none of them are trained for it. Probably would'nt any way. It would be more of a follow the dogs mounted and them get off of the horse to go to the bay and finish off the pig.

Regardless, behind dogs I'd more likely be using a knife or spear. that said, I have shot a pig over dogs with my Navy .44

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have only really been pig hunting once..in the Ventana wilderness in CA. Black Russian Boar....... One trial learning.......those suckers are agressive and mean.....the dogs paid aa price and I never knew I could climb a tree that fast!!    .... The meat was really good though....acorn fed!!  I will try it here in GA this fall.....with my new.58 I hope, or else the trusty .54.  May have a .53 pistol in time to help..

[SuperCracker]

Later on this month I will begin my scouting of Ft Stewart. I plan to hit it quite hard this and next year. It is and has been for a while ate up with pigs.

Maybe I'll be able to point you towards some hot spots. 

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Since this is on barrell length, I'm curious,  What is the longest know rifled barrel?  In the future I would like a Swamped .58 52-56 in long.

[northmn]

In my book by Johnson, published by the Kentucky Rifle Assoc. I believe there was a rifle with a 60 inch barrel.  It was of the later Golden age period.  The belief in the advantages of long barrels seems to have been an issue in all types of guns.  The original Long Land Brown Bess had a very long barrel and evolved into a shorter model over time because the longer barrels were not as practical.  Rifles taken to the trenches in WW1 had longer barrels that evolved into shorter ones as in the Mauser.  The Bess was essentially a spear that made noise in a lot of hands and length may have been considered an advantage in bayonet use.
The longrifle was essentially an American idea.  Mostly I think it was believed that long barrels shot harder and were more accurate.  Essentially a fact, but there is a tendency to go beyond the law of diminishing returns such that if a 44 inch barrel shoots good then a 48 inch will be even better yet.  Shooting matches were also popular in the East and I think some of the surviving rifles were built to be used for that purpose also and not carried a lot.  Note that the Western rifle that saw more practical use had shorter barrels.  That may have been also true of the earlier Eastern rifle before things got more settled  

DP

[Canute Rex]

I have read (and this may be a crock) that in trade with the Indians a firelock would placed with its butt on the ground and traded for a stack of beaver skins equal to its height. That would encourage long barrels, at least in trade guns.

We should also consider that much of what passed for design 200 years ago was really copying tradition. Nobody had a chronograph. There were a handful of eprouvettes for testing powder and the odd ballistic pendulum in a royal armory. Most craftsmen were just looking at what their masters had made, who in turn were looking at what their masters had made.

Don't underestimate the possibility of greed multiplied by tradition.