Author Topic: Smoothbore issues  (Read 19170 times)

northmn

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Smoothbore issues
« on: July 30, 2010, 06:26:01 PM »
Started playing with my 20 bore smooth rifle.  The stocks is still somewhat in the rough, but I like to make sure things fit and function before final finsih.  My ball mold is an old Dixie with the scissors handle where you cut off the sprue manually.  The balls are also slightly oblong at .602X.605.  thinking I should get a Lee mold as I doubt a smoothbore can really be accurate with filed down sprues and an oblong ball, even when I load the parting line the same way each time.  Haven't benched it yet as it shot quite high and I worked the rear sight down to hit the paper.  Browning the barrel now.  No vent liner yet, but for some reason things got a little messy with broken off bits and instead of a .70 hole I ended up with a 5/64 or .78.  It seems to work with that large of a hole but I wonder if it may not be a little large even for a 20 bore.  The old Dixie catalog used to recommend a 3/32.  Really thought I would try no liner in it, but it does seem a little large.

DP

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 06:53:34 PM »
You'll just have to try it and decide for yourself.  I wouldn't worry about the ball if it's as close as that to round.  If you use enough powder, you'll find it accurate enough to 100 yds to kill deer or moose.  I shoot 85 grains FFg as a standard load, and ring the gongs at 109 yards more often than not.
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roundball

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 08:00:11 PM »
Plus, even with a perfectly round ball...I assume there's a couple thousandth's distoration at ignition / set-back time anyway

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 08:26:25 PM »
Well you haven't lived til you shoot that smoothie in the matches that allow no rear sight!~!

The careless use of a copper pick grew my touchole to a 5/64 (with a little shove a 3/32nd would have gone in) started shooting low and losing 2 f out of the vent.  (bummer) Replaced the vent and chucked out the copper pick.  I only pick her now when she demands it!!  In any case I would go with the 5/64th with enough black stuff she should shoot just fine with good ignition also....Mine happens to be a 28 gauge.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 12:46:02 AM by Roger Fisher »

Daryl

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2010, 04:41:55 AM »
.602x.605 is as accurate as most every one of my rb mould - Lyman, Lee, RCBS or Tanner.  Only my .311" Lee, .398" LYman (supposed to be .395") and the .400" DC Lyman cast round balls. The DC .400" mould only does that with one cavity - the other casts .395" x .400"- that one cavity will enlarge groups by 2 1/2 times at 50 yards, so the mould is a heavy single cavity for me.
Being out up to .003" in a .62 will probably make no difference in a rifle, let along in a smoothbore- in my opinion, that is.

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2010, 04:26:42 PM »
I have had a couple of smoothies that I used to shoot in matches that required no rear sight.  People kept buying them from me and I started this one to have another.  this time just for kicks I wanted to have a smooth rifle to see how well sights would work.  Been ecperimenting with Daryls express sight.  They seem to line up very quick.  While the gun kicks it doesn't hurt so I can finish it off in its current configuration as to drop.  I started with 90 gr. (according to the powder measure, not weighed of GOEX 2f)  This will be mostly a hunting gun with possibilites of shot being used on small game.  I was surprised that most molds you checked were also out of round.  I never really checked taht much before?   Old dog keeps learning.  The touchhole does seem to leak any powder.  It would be easy to drill out for a liner but I still wanted to check out whether one is all that needed for my own curiosity.

DP

roundball

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 07:19:35 PM »
Well, maybe this will make you feel better...I had an all morning range trip to put the "final" tweaks on the sight settings for my smoothbore PRBs load and after it was all said and done it was a complete waste of gas, powder, patch, ball, and I ended up ruining a set of sights in the process...have to order/install a new set and start all over again.
  :-[

I thought I needed to open the rear notch wider to get better visibility with the front sight...and in the course of doing so kept filing first one side then the other to try and keep the notch centered / balanced...and became so engrossed in the balancing part that I lost track of just how wide the notch was becoming until it was too late.  And now...if I'm careful...I can push a lawnmower through the notch without hitting either side  !!!!!!!
 ::)
(This is why I don't try to "build" a muzzleloader !!)

So, off to TOW's website I go...

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2010, 05:18:31 AM »
I am really getting attached to the express sight style.   Have a modified version on my squirrel rifle and have filed it in on the smooothbore.  No notch just a super large V.  I really think that it will work good using shot even on occaisional flying targets.  As for roundball use, they permit me to use open sights as the fine sights for targets just don't cut it anymore.  I kept shooting high a couple of years ago because I could not see them in the field like I should.

DP

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 12:42:47 PM »
Got the barrel browned and took it out again and roughed it in at about 25 yards so I can haul everything out to the bench and try it out properly.  Ordered the Lee mold as it was just a PITA to cut the sprues using the Dixie mold.   The Lee mold throws ball that are 602x604 max, with some 602x603. Probably will not matter but we will see.  May mark the mold so that I have a reference point to load all ball the same like BPC shooters do.  Rifles are more forgiving so that some of this is not needed as much.  Want to test it out to 75 yards or so.  Have to try some shot out of it also.  Maybe some day I will get to finish up on the stock.  One good thing about walnut is that if you do not stain it its easy to refinish.

DP

Daryl

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 03:25:32 PM »
When I take things seriously, I align the patch weave and mould line on the ball the same way, every time.  I did just that for last summer's 200 yard match run by Candle Snuffer.  When checking the sights, I'm sure the aignment helped with the 1 1/4" x 3 1/2", 6 shot group I managed off the bags at 200 yards.

I am not certain it will help much with a smoothbore, but then, you just never know. Generally speaking, everything you can do to improve consistancy in loading and shooting, helps.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 05:48:56 PM by Daryl »

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 04:45:55 PM »
When I take things seriously, I align the patch weave and mould line on the ball the same way, every time.  I did just that for last summer's 200 yard match run by Candle Snuffer.  When checking the sights, I'm sure the aignment helped with the 1 1/4" x 3 1/2", 6 shot group I managed off the bags at 20 yards.

I am not certain it will help much with a smoothbore, but then, you just never know. Generally speaking, everything you can do to improve consistancy in loading and shooting, helps.
20 yds or 200 ???  You did mean with a rifle?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:49:54 PM by Roger Fisher »

Daryl

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 05:51:59 PM »
yes - 200 and yes, with a rifle.  I did mention I wasn't sure it would help with a smoothbore, but I do feel it certainly couldn't do any harm.  The smoothbore should be good for 1" to 1 1/2" at 25 to 30 yards for 5 shots - maybe 35yards with 2 sights.

BrownBear

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 06:53:10 PM »
I should probably start a separate thread for this, but since there are some notable smootbore brains here, I'm going to pose a question:

Is there any record of muzzleloading smoothbores for something like the "kicker" used by contemporary air soft shooters to increase accuracy and range?  After all, they're shooting "round balls" down smooth bored barrels, so the parallels would seem natural. 

I'm asking out of ignorance because I don't shoot air soft, and I barely rise to the level of duffer with black powder smooth bores.  But I have a nephew who's very serious about air soft, and the kicker does amazing things for extending the accurate range in the guns he builds.

Offline LynnC

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 08:01:57 PM »
Uh - what's a kicker?

Totaly outside the scope of my admittedly old text :D
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

BrownBear

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 09:01:03 PM »
Uh - what's a kicker?

Totaly outside the scope of my admittedly old text :D

Boy, it's darned near beyond my understanding too, especially coming from an 18-year old computer whizz.

As I understand it, it's a little "bump" somewhere in the top or bottom of bore that causes the ball....er, pellet.... to have top spin or bottom spin coming out of the bore.  Not sure (okay, can't remember) which it is.  All I know is that when he shot without the kicker the ball "knuckleballed" all over the place as velocity dropped.  You could watch it through the scope.  With the kicker at work, the ball easily doubled or tripled it's range before the knuckleballing started. 

I can't see how it could be done in a muzzleloader unless it was a dimple at the muzzle, but it sure set my lead ball thoughts on fire.  If it worked, I could easily see it being an effective "cheat" for smoothbore matches.

Daryl

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 11:17:36 PM »
Interesting - I wondered if it had something to do with putting a definite spin on the ball.  Now we know.  You should be able to do that with a pure lead ball - all you'd need to do is to take a chance.  It probably wouldn't shoot any worse - that's for sure.

My feelings on spin, is that if too much spin, would make the ball react like a climer baseball. It might remove the windage error though and that would be a bonus.  The higher the velcity of the ball, perhaps the more spin would result.  A paint ball is running 280fps - our musket balls are running 800fps to about 1,200 or 1,300fps.  I have to wonder if the 'kicker' would either be too effective, or not effective enough with the higher speeds we're using.

I've watched slow moving round balls that take on a spin in the air (through binoculars) - divert exponentially with increased range.  Normally, to increase the accurate range of a smoothbore - you have to drive the ball faster so it goes farther before it takes on a spin.
My double 12 bore, 1900 era ctg. gun would hold into 10" offhand, alternating rights and lefts, at 100 yards - but it took 190gr. 2f to do it - yeah it kicked. Then I found smokeless at the same speed, gave me the same regulation, with 1/3 the recoil. I was using my .684" ball of WW or pure with the sprue filed off and specialty wads to hold the ball centred.  Pertenant to this thread, is that at 1,550fps that ball was quite accurate right to 125 yards and like a patched ball, was delivered with out any spin at all. Too, I was using a rib mounted scope for this testing.  the faster i drove the balls, the longer accuracy range I had.  Off the bags, it would hold onto around 5 1/2 to 6" with BP or select smokeless loads.

Balls without sprues should be more accurate art range, than balls with a sprue as there is less 'surface' irregularity to cause a spin to start.  Of course, internal defects, like air pockets will also cause a spin to start - or grossly irregular flight that increases exponentially.  It is demoralizing to see a load that shoots 1" at 25 yards for 5 shots, open up at 50 yards off a rest to where 5 shots doesn't produce 5 holes in an 8"x11" sheet of paper.   The lack of a sprue is one reason I prefer Jeff Tanner moulds for large calibre smoothbores.

 Heavier charges for increassed range is one reason why the US paper ctg. loads held so much powder- they wanted to achieve 1,700fps & thought they actually did, with the 165gr. serpentine powder, then 130gr. with the more powerful amalgamated powders of post 1820 or so. Their main problem with accuracy, was the grossly undersized balls they used - .64 cal to 1820 or so, then .65 cal balls. The issue muskets ran .69 to .70 cal. and the paper, while taking up some of the windage, didn't take it all up.

BrownBear - if you don't want to 'ding' your muzzle to make a 'kicker', send your barrel to me and I'll do it - to it - in the intersts of science, of course.  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 04:56:14 PM by Daryl »

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2010, 01:46:22 AM »
I just finished shooting a few rounds with my smooth bore at 75 yards.  It seemed to be fairly consistant in that when I filed down the rear sight it shot lower.  I had a wind issue and also a little problem getting the express sight centered while filing.  While I still ahve room the rear sight is getting a bit low.  May try 100 grains of powder next if a little more zip would help.  Problem is that with a larger 20 bore probably would need 110 to notice a difference. Tried two thickness of patching and did not really notice any difference as the one is still pretty tight.  The person renting my hay land started raking so I quit.  Was also getting fouling problems at the breech with flashes in the pan that I had no problem with earlier.  Was swabing between shots to try to maintain something like a new bore for sight in which also added to the fouling I think. Likely will install a vent liner. If I put a dent in the barrel it will likely be done in frustration.  They did experiment with choked bores about the turn of the century and found them to increase velocity, kind of like your kicker idea.

DP

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2010, 02:05:16 AM »
Good ol Daryl up there in the crystal clear air mentions using 'some' smokeless in a Muzzleloader (unless I'm affected by the grape this evening) Jeez Daryl I don't think we should give anyone the smallest suggestion to try smokeless in a black powder firearm.  Say you didn't mean it. Were you fighting with Barbara?  Were you jilted by the neighbor lady?  Did the cutthroat trout refuse to strike your last time out, or the last three times you were out.?  :D ??? ::)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2010, 02:14:06 AM »
I have heard that nefarious competitors in smoothbore matches have sometimes "rifled" their smoothbores with abrasive, just enough to last 20-30 shots and not be detectable, and gotten good results.  Basically use a rifling bench but the head is just a jag with rough abrasive cloth glued on.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 02:20:06 AM »
I have heard that nefarious competitors in smoothbore matches have sometimes "rifled" their smoothbores with abrasive, just enough to last 20-30 shots and not be detectable, and gotten good results.  Basically use a rifling bench but the head is just a jag with rough abrasive cloth glued on.
Jeez Rich don't give anyone ideas... ;D   I happened to be at a shoot yrs ago when another 'shooter' dryballed his Trade gun!  He pulled the ball and laid it on the loading bench. I grabbed it and saw the deep lands and grooves on the ball and still have it here in a drawer.   That shooter and I have an 'understanding' ever since that day.  He and I are the only ones that "know' his trade gun was not smooth.

I haven't seen him shoot that piece in the matches since that long ago day ;)

Buzzard

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 06:13:40 AM »
Roger; there's a certain fellow here in west central ohio who pulled that same stunt. We finally figured out why he's using a 530rb in his (24ga) Tulle! He started shooting at a different club.

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 12:18:25 PM »
Way back when, when my interst developed into smoothbores and NWTGs started showing up (at that time they were quite a fad, kind of like everyone had to have a Hawken)  I set up two challenges for the "trade gun match"  One was a clay pidgeon match made easier for flintlocks and the other gongs where the score was either a hit or miss.  The rifled barrels may have been somewhat handicapped then.  I have always had this idiotic notion that a smoothbore should be able to use shot as well as roundball.  Was pretty popular for a bit but the buckskinners started complaining that it was too much shooting.

DP

Daryl

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 04:55:32 PM »
You're right Roger - I should have made it more clear that my old double 12 - was a ctg. gun.  I most certainly DO NOT condone nor suggest using smokeless in a muzzleloader.  Post altered.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 04:56:35 PM by Daryl »

northmn

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2010, 05:10:03 PM »
They have some interesting pictures of whats left of a hand from smokeless on the Cast Boolit site.  Maybe here too, I can't remember.  Youre ideas about heavier loads are taken into consideration, but a 20 bore using a fowler barrel instead of a true rifle barrel kind of starts hurting over about 100 grains.

DP 

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Smoothbore issues
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 05:19:23 PM »
You're right Roger - I should have made it more clear that my old double 12 - was a ctg. gun.  I most certainly DO NOT condone nor suggest using smokeless in a muzzleloader.  Post altered.
Nuf said ;D