Bedding a swamped barrel

[SuperCracker]

At the risk of stirring a pot. When bedding a swamped barrel is it vital that the sides at 45deg to the stock are matching also or is it acceptable for only the sides and bottom to make uniform contact?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When inletting a swamped barrel by hand, ideally you what perfect wood to metal contact.  However, there will surely be places where you will have scraped or chiseled just a little too much out, and the barrel will rest on the tops of the plains.  The vertical sides of the channel will only be 1/8" - 3/16" high, so they'd better be pretty good.  the bottom flat like the 45's, should be perfect, but it is not imperative.  Strive for the best you can do - don't be happy with "that's close enough".
That said, some originals have a round inlet for an octagonal barrel.  But there is no point trying to emulate poor workmanship.

[rich pierce]

Taylor, that's cold; "No point in trying to emulate poor workmanship"!
I surely agree that the better the fit, the happier you and your rifle will be.  I hate it when I can squeeze the forestock and it moves a little in relation to the barrel.  Some of that can be due to the way the pins were drilled through the lugs.

[Robby]

When I first started out making these things, I didn't know any better and would chastise myself for only getting about 90% purchase on all five sides, as shown by the blackening. It was explained to me that standard of fit is not necessary, and was not done to that degree, back in the day. I still try for that caliber of fit, even on the octagon to round barrels. I agree with Taylor.

[Karl K.]

...  I hate it when I can squeeze the forestock and it moves a little in relation to the barrel.  Some of that can be due to the way the pins were drilled through the lugs.

I feel better Rich, I thought it was just me.

[Michael]

Huh, George Schreyer does poor workmanship.

[Ben I. Voss]

Quote: "Huh, George Schreyer does poor workmanship."  Nah, can't be George. Must be that new apprentice!!

[Jim Kibler]

Everybody should of course work in a manner that makes them happy.  With that being said, I don't believe full contact or anything approaching that is necessary in inletting a swamped barrel.  As long as the fit on the sides is good and there is pretty decent contact on the bottom I believe this is sufficient.  I personally don't use a channel hogged out oversize, but also don't get fanatical about contact area either.  I don't believe this is poor workmanship, but I guess a judgement like this is rather subjective.

[LRB]

  I would fully agree. I believe the breech area to somewhat critical, and I want reasonable contact on the bottom. I think those 45° flats would not have to make contact at all so long as the sides and bottom are of a decent fit. Just my opinion.

[Richard/Ga.]

How tight do y'all feel the barrel should be in the channel before any sealer or finish is applied?

Should the barrel slip in and out with little or no resistance or is it better that a little pressure is required to fully seat the barrel in the channel?

Richard/Ga. 

[ken]

You must be able to get the barrel out and the wood will tighten up with finish. If bedding is done I would consintrate at the breech area for strenth. As far as the lenth of the barrel you do not want real tight spots with real loose spots. Let the barrel.sing or it will be a job to get it sighted in and stay accurate.

[flintriflesmith]

How tight do y'all feel the barrel should be in the channel before any sealer or finish is applied?
Richard/Ga. 

I'm almost afraid to mention this but is there any evidence that original rifles ever had finish or sealer under the barrel? I've taken apart guns of all types made from 1680 to 1980 and it seems that only modern longrifle builders find puting finish in the barrel channel a necessity. Oops! There I go encouraging "sloppy work" again!

Gary

[Robby]

Gary, I don't think your encouraging sloppy work, now a sarcastic pot-shot, yeah, there you go. Course, I not only try to do a good job on the areas that aren't seen, like the barrel channel, but I seal it too. Oh, and I don't demand that anyone do anything the way I do.
Robby

[rich pierce]

Haven't seen it but I've only disassmbled a few, not a few hundred as folks at Williamsburg must have.  I suspect there are few original longrifles with evidence of glass bedding original to the rifle either.

Much of what we do is driven by what customers expect, and much of what they expect seems to be based on what they read before they discovered muzzleloading.  

A rifle with the bottom 3 barrel flats left rough ground, with a plain drilled touchhole, inletted into a raw, round-bottomed barrel channel with rough underlugs, with the stock finished with one or two coats of heavy varnish and the furniture bearing some file marks and defects in the castings, is not going to be acceptable to most customers, or judges, either.

But my next "keeper" is going to be done just that way.  I know it will be a keeper because nobody but a re-enactor would want it, and they'd want it for $600, LOL.

[bgf]

Aside from modern expectations and pride in the fact that you went about things the hard way, what functional or even normally perceptible advantage does the octagonal inlet have over the well-fitting round one? 

[Pete G.]

For what it's worth, I've had two rifles that would not shoot very well until I relieved some of the wood bearing against bottom flats of the barrel. It shows up as sort of a polished spot on the wood, and once scraped away both rifles shot much better. Perhaps the old guys knew what they were doing when they didn't fit the barrel too tightly.

[dannybb55]

Haven't seen it but I've only disassembled a few, not a few hundred as folks at Williamsburg must have.  I suspect there are few original longrifles with evidence of glass bedding original to the rifle either.

Much of what we do is driven by what customers expect, and much of what they expect seems to be based on what they read before they discovered muzzleloading.  

A rifle with the bottom 3 barrel flats left rough ground, with a plain drilled touchhole, inletted into a raw, round-bottomed barrel channel with rough underlugs, with the stock finished with one or two coats of heavy varnish and the furniture bearing some file marks and defects in the castings, is not going to be acceptable to most customers, or judges, either.

But my next "keeper" is going to be done just that way.  I know it will be a keeper because nobody but a reactor would want it, and they'd want it for $600, LOL.

Maybe a redactor would want it because he, unlike a collector, knows what was carried back then, and wants to emulate the old aesthetic. Whereas a collector has put no thought into it at all. I just finished making my barrel channel plane and forged up an iron for it so that is the groove that the next next rifle will get. When I finally get the money together, I am going to buy a Stanley 45 and It will be a little easier. The tools determine the work. If you use industrial age tools, then your rifle will reflect that and stand out like a sore thumb amongst originals.
 I stick with Gary and Jack Brooks on this one.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Other than at the breech and the muzzle, the wood is simply hanging on the barrel. Not hanging so that it flops around etc...... is not good, , you want to be able to hold the wood and keep the bead on the target; but having the barrrel firmly bedded in the entire forestock certainly doesn't serve any functional purpose. Room for shrinkage and swelling from changes in humidity is pretty important to the life of the stick ....and maybe to accuracy as well???

[Michael]

I agree with Jim. Each of us approaches gun making with our own ideas and opinions. My techniques and work practices may not satisfy another builder. For me it's the personal satisfaction that I can use the tool to produce the results I am trying to achieve. Each gun I make first and foremost is made to please me, I'm not doing this to make a living. My belief--'Guns made in a neat and workmanlike manner'.

I made a wooden barrel inletting plane set up to cut an octagonal barrel channel and it worked great. After using it on a couple of guns I reworked it to cut a round barrel channel. Most of the guns I make have oct/round or round barrels. For a octagonal rifle barrel I inlet the muzzle and breech to fit the barrel and the rest of the inlet is round, sure speeds up inletting time not having to smoke and scrape the bottom three flats breech to muzzle. When it is finished the barrel contacts the stock well enough that when the pins are in place the is no movement of the of the forestock.

[northmn]

The best thing is to do the best you can.  We are still our own worst critic on these issues.  Personally I try to get as close as possible to a mirror fit but also accept that I did about as good as I can.

DP

[sz]

Here is part of a tutorial I did for another site.  I hope it's helpful.

We are now beginning to inlet the barrel. The photo the breach end of the barrel resting on top of the Breaching shoulder of the stock. It's about to be inlet to the half way point.


I have now inlet the breach end inlet 1/2 way into the wood so the barrel now lays on top of the stock.

 At this point the muzzle is clamped down so it can't move. You can offset it to one side or the other to make the center line of the barrel cast off to the side so I can make the gun with cast-off.

This rifle casts to the left, as it's a left hand rifle This line is very important to the final fit of the stock, and should be drawn on with a marker so it won't rub off. It's going to be there until we inlet the butt plate and shape the comb and the butt stock.



A chisel is sharpened all from one side for this cut. You place the flat on the side of the barrel and hold it in place with the thumb. Press only hard enough to keep it flat. If you push hard you will flex the barrel. YOU DON'T WANT TO FLEX THE BARREL SIDE TO SIDE, SO USE VERY LITTLE SIDEWAYS PRESSURE AS YOU DO THIS.



Lightly tap the chisel to make a cut on the top of the stock.

Here I use a 2" wide chisel to deepen the cut.
Here you see the side cuts set in about 1/16" deep. I pencil down them so I can see them better.
 

I have drawn a cross section of a barrel channel. On a swamped barrel, the muzzle is wider and deeper than the waist of the barrel, and so is the breach end.

If you take 2 swamped barrels and lay them side by side on the floor, and then pinch then togather with your pinky and your thumb, you will see it takes VERY LITTLE to flex them.
When you flex the outside you flex and bend the bore. If you want a swamped barrel to shoot well it's ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE that the barrel not flex side to side or up and down when it's fully inlet.
This is how the barrel will be inlet.  First i will remove the wood marked "A".  The I will make a trench marked "B"  These "trenches" are precise in depth so the barrel is also not warped up and down, just like I was careful not to flex it side to side
 it has to lay in a manor so that the bore remains straight.


So I measure the side flats with a caliper to the nearest .0001" at increments of about 4" and I divide it by 2 to get the depth. I do the same thing with the barrel itself to get the half diameter at about 3" increments
I have those written measurements on the top of the stock at the points that they relate to the barrel.
Depth of side flats and depth of barrel, both divided in half.

 
I will then inlet to those depth with my tools and scrapers until I have the barrel to correct depth. I try to hold + or- .002" at every increment. This is the secret to getting a swamped barrel to shoot tiny little groups
   
Now I am going to inlet the barrel channel. I start by going half the depth of the side flats. You make a shallow channel to the depth of half the height of the side flats. On a swamped barrel such as this one, you go 1/2 the depth of the flat at the waist. Then cross hatch it at about 1/8" increments with a chisel so you can cut paper thing shavings out of it to adjust the depth deeper toward the muzzle and the breach. Keep your chisel like razors! This is "channel A"


You have to get a bit deeper at 4" increments going towards the breach and the muzzle, as you start from the waist. So, to recap, you cut "channel A" full length at the shallowest depth, and then gently deepen it as you cut to it's final depth.

 These are my initial cuts to make "channel B"  I take the 1/2 diameter of the barrel at the waist of the barrel and make this channel that deep for it's full length. Take pains with this! You want to be very precise and use the side of a file and a scraper to make sure it's the correct depth at ever 3" increment for the full length of the barrel. I do the procedure the same way as I did "Channel A". 1/2 the depth of the barrel at the waist, and then deepen it a bit at a time with files and scraper going towards the muzzle and then towards the breach.



This is the breach end and the roughed out "Channel B"

Now I take a 1/4" chisel and I rough out the "45s" (45 degree angles on the bottom of the octagon barrel channel)



Now I use my "secret" weapons - Gunline Octagon bedding tools. (you can buy then through Brownells)

You have to use these tools to appreciate them. However they are a bit pricey.

 For building only a few guns you can do the same work with bent "foot rasps" which you can make out of mild steel and just make your own teeth with a 3 corner fail. They don't work as easily as the Gunline tools, but they will get you through a barrel channel. You just re-sharpen them with the file a few times per gun.

Here you can see the breach end is smoothed out with the gunline tool, and the bottom of the pic you can see the roughed out channel as it was left by the 1/4" chisel

 
Here you see the use of a steel rule. Any straight non-flexing edge can be used. I lay it along the bottom and the "45s" and see if it will rock. Any rock shows you where the high spots are. You file them down until you have no dips and humps, and you go SLOW so as to not take more than a very few thousandths of an inch in depth so the barrel will not be flexed at all when it's installed.


I now indicate where I will drill a 1/16th hole to make the center of the barrel channel It will be the center of the rod channel later. I will drill it PERPENDICULAR to the top edge of the stock so it comes out in the exact center underneath the barrel, and so it comes out at the "dogleg" where the rod will enter the handrail.


 

The barrel is coated with inletting black and the fit is checked and small areas are scraped and filed to insure a perfect fit. Now that after the barrel is fitted for good I slab off the waste wood that was on the sides.

[Stophel]

Good enough really is good enough.  An absolutely staggering amount of time can be spent getting a "perfect" fit all along the barrel channel...for absolutely zero benefit whatsoever.



This is about typical for mine...and is still rather better than the old ones I have gotten to see.

[Leatherbelly]

   In the modern world, most if not all rifles are free floating or glass bedded.My modern rifles are capable of 1/2" at a hundred meters and are both free floating barrels.So here's my question: Is it necessary to bed or float a muzzleloader with their lower velocities? or does it only apply to modern junk?

[rich pierce]

"modern junk", LOL

[FL-Flintlock]

  In the modern world, most if not all rifles are free floating or glass bedded.My modern rifles are capable of 1/2" at a hundred meters and are both free floating barrels.So here's my question: Is it necessary to bed or float a muzzleloader with their lower velocities? or does it only apply to modern junk?

Glass bedding, not really.  Flexible bedding, yes.  Positive consistency can make the difference between patterns and groups in an ML just the same as in suppository rifle - especially for those us who prefer a fullstock no matter which end it loads from.