Author Topic: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"  (Read 16450 times)

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2010, 07:05:43 AM »
    Never been to Dixon's, never seen a critique sheet. So I maybe way off base here, but from what I have read it sounds like to me the problem is not with the judges but with the critique sheets, they are not as informative as they could be. I know with so many guns entered the judges don't have enough time to write things out. So the critique sheets should be made up of 4 pages. Page 1. line drawings showing the 4 sides of the butt,( patch box side, comb, check peace side, toe plate side). Page 2. line drawings of the wrist an lock area ( tang, sideplate, triggers). Page 3. Forearm. Page 4. Forend. The line drawings could include patchbox, inlays, etc. On the lower half of each page, you would have a list of possible problem, ( gaps, inlay to deep,  carving to high, etc. ) and a line for comments. All a judge would have to do is circle what needs to be changed and check the problem below, and a spot for a comment if he wishes. I think it would speed things up for the judges and better inform the builder.  Like I said, I maybe way off base.       A.Merrill
Alan K. Merrill

jwh1947

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2010, 07:39:04 PM »
Speaking of personal tastes, among most builders I know personally,  there seems to be a shared respect for good workmanship based upon traditional, regional architectural norms and styles.  The ultra-contemporary and bizarre are appreciated for what they are, but it is the piece that emulates the soul of the past, as given by the grand masters, that draws intense focus, study and appreciation around here.  It is nothing unusual for one of our finer builders to take an hour off, sit down, and just study a fine piece of art.  Over and over the same details, with one's hands as well as one's eyes.  We likely all share this trait and find it downright inspirational. 

As for the judges, they do a decent job, considering that they are human and put into a malestrom of decision making that, by its nature, has to be somewhat subjective.  They all have an archetype in their minds as to what the classics should look like.  How else could it be?  As for fine craft work, it is good to have someone point out details for improvement, and that is what they are going to do. 

Point is, just like anything else, there is a system of judging.  Want to play "beat the system?"  Then build a gun "for the judges." and take your chances.  Want to have fun?  Study the architecture first, then build a gun "for enjoyment and use."  Someday, just for fun, really critique your own work first, and when you finish off the rifle superb, then enter it in the contest, if so inclined, and see if the judges concur.  That's all part of the fun and, yes, you may learn something useful for a better build next time.


rdillon

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2010, 06:19:54 PM »
They apparently hold modern builders to a higher standard than the old timer's.

I thought the whole point was to strive toward perfection and learn from mistakes you may have missed.  Maybe I'm all wet!!! :o :o :o
I have entered a gun every year for the last 3 years and have been quite pleased with the ribbons I have recieved and seldom agree with their sheets.  When I haved ask a few other builders to look at them and give them the Judges report I also get mixed answers, is anyone truely right?  Inside of patchbox too rough???? HMMMM  Should it have a mirror finish lock the outside of the stock????  Don't think so.

Rodger as Dave Rase pointed out the lockplate should have been rebeveled, other than I like it!!!

I think the judges are just trying to "push" builders to do their best work and give you an unbiased point of view that someone you know may not.


Offline fm tim

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2010, 01:41:07 AM »
Ron Gable described the judging criteria at a 2009 fair seminar

It was recorded by PCN.  Available here.

https://www.pcnstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=80&products_id=2537&osCsid=mf21ppidoure029a822t3fulu6

Mike R

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2010, 04:27:20 PM »
They apparently hold modern builders to a higher standard than the old timer's.

I thought the whole point was to strive toward perfection and learn from mistakes you may have missed.  Maybe I'm all wet!!! :o :o :o
I have entered a gun every year for the last 3 years and have been quite pleased with the ribbons I have recieved and seldom agree with their sheets.  When I haved ask a few other builders to look at them and give them the Judges report I also get mixed answers, is anyone truely right?  Inside of patchbox too rough???? HMMMM  Should it have a mirror finish lock the outside of the stock????  Don't think so.

Rodger as Dave Rase pointed out the lockplate should have been rebeveled, other than I like it!!!

I think the judges are just trying to "push" builders to do their best work and give you an unbiased point of view that someone you know may not.



I was not being critical of the  criteria, just commenting on it--although many period craftsmen thought perfection was only achieved by God.  If perfection is the governing criteria then Bill Shipman should win every time...

Offline Rich

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2010, 08:06:54 AM »
Thanks for your post. I find critiques helpful. I also like your rifle. I just finished a pistol and after reading your post, went back out in the shop and made a couple of corrections. The issue regarding the triggers  might be that they appear to be held in with screws. I think that on mountain rifles they were held in by the trigger guard.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2010, 05:56:28 PM »
I'm coming into the discussion kind of late, just got back from three weeks in engraving camp.

Roger, I think your gun is well built, and well executed. I also see some of the flaws in the pictures that would get you points off. But is it any better or worse than original guns? No. It is actually better than many originals. But that is not what the judging is about.

Having been judging for years now, this is my impression of the event:
The judging is primarily an educational tool. There are many guns to sort, and little time. The judge sheet is a quick tool by which the guns get sorted, the ones with more 'flaws' get lower on the list. Every gun of each class goes through that gauntlet. If two guns of the same class (Apprentice, Journeyman, Master) get the same score, then they are taken back to the table and looked at side by side, and they are sorted out by comparison(they don't let me do this part yet).

The main point about the judging is to point out areas where the builder needs improvement.

I also understand a builder getting angry about their score or result. This is very hard personally. But try to keep in mind, that your work is being compared to an ideal build. You can take your sheet and  gun to a judge and ask about things you don't understand. THAT is your best shot at understanding your score. Every little thing wrong about the nosecap is points off, the entry thimble is also a big points off potential. If you don't understand, ASK.

It's not a computerized process yet, so it's all manual. Several judges were out this year, for various reasons, and Mark Wheland generously stepped in to lend a hand. This is hard on Mark, because he is ostensibly at DIxon's to be at his tent, promoting his own work. I am also not able to be at my tent, but my son Jesse and ALR members cover my tent while I'm in the judge booth. I believe there is opportunity for those interested in helping others learn to apply for judge. There will be openings as the current judges retire. Jeff Guillaume or Rich Hujsa would be the contact people if you are interested.

It's not an ideal system, it has its flaws, but it does work. And it's a critique that is hard to find anywhere else in this field.

Tom
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 05:57:28 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2010, 06:17:25 PM »
"  Never been to Dixon's, never seen a critique sheet. So I maybe way off base here, but from what I have read it sounds like to me the problem is not with the judges but with the critique sheets, they are not as informative as they could be. I know with so many guns entered the judges don't have enough time to write things out. So the critique sheets should be made up of 4 pages. Page 1. line drawings showing the 4 sides of the butt,( patch box side, comb, check peace side, toe plate side). Page 2. line drawings of the wrist an lock area ( tang, sideplate, triggers). Page 3. Forearm. Page 4. Forend. The line drawings could include patchbox, inlays, etc. On the lower half of each page, you would have a list of possible problem, ( gaps, inlay to deep,  carving to high, etc. ) and a line for comments. All a judge would have to do is circle what needs to be changed and check the problem below, and a spot for a comment if he wishes. I think it would speed things up for the judges and better inform the builder.  Like I said, I maybe way off base.       A.Merrill"

Another thought for what it is worth:

Perhaps in addition to changing the critique sheet it might work to eliminate the zero-sum game And have the guns judged against criteria in order to qualify for a class:

  • Masterpiece
  • Quality Gun of Fine Fit and Finish
  • Journeyman work
  • Made in the Neatest Manner
  • Quality Apprentice Work
  • Critique only


Or something like that.. ... with clear criteria + judges opinion being required to achieve one of these ratings
There would be no limit on the number of guns etc that could qualify for each class..............
 Even a beginner could score a Masterpiece... and even an old pro could score Apprentice........... Oh how humiliating!!   :o :o

Well I thought a suggestion was more useful than griping....though I don't mind that... its better than nothing.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 06:18:16 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2010, 07:20:37 PM »
The judging at Dixon's is an institution and I'd be very surprised if the basic way it is done changes anytime soon.  I doubt that they will ever change from the "points off system" for example.  
Incremental changes could happen, like making the comments clearer, and developing a handout that could be given to builders when they enter their work.  The handout could explain the system and what is expected from each aspect of the gun that is graded.  It would explain that the judging is to an ideal, that re-creating an original that is not exemplary in every way is not going to win ribbons.  

I'd like to see a booth where builders could bring their guns and have a one-on-one appointment with an established maker or two, 5-10 minutes per gun for one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon.  Have a sign up sheet at the booth.  That would be educational.  Ideally the mentors would have a rifle of their own there for comparison, and could point out areas that were good, and areas that could have been done better.

(added in edit) "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"; meanwhile, I'll enter when I want to get that sort of input, and thank the judges for their time.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 07:46:04 PM by richpierce »
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tuffy

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2010, 07:55:17 PM »
The judging at Dixon's is an institution and I'd be very surprised if the basic way it is done changes anytime soon.  I doubt that they will ever change from the "points off system" for example.  

Kinda sounds like these guys would fit right in "The good ole' boys club" in DC. Of course this is coming from one that has never been to Dixon's, has never entered a gun in any judging event, but does appreciate a finely finished longrifle. Mostly just to shoot and go hunting with. After all is said and done, isn't that what the originals were built for? Just my nickle. ;)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 08:45:58 PM »
These guys are good boys and they are old boys but they don't belong to a club, LOL.  They are just volunteers who have made Dixons a great Gunmakers Fair for years and years.  At my church, we tell folks that "those doing the work get to be the deciders by default, so if you want change, get involved".
Andover, Vermont

Daryl

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Re: "Critique Sheets At The Fair"
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2010, 07:00:59 PM »
Don - they probably would have changed the classification to "Contemporary" as it doens't foled their idea of what a cross-section 'area' rifle looks like.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 07:01:41 PM by Daryl »