.45 pistol velocities

[Shovelbuck]

Anybody have an idea as to what velocities I can get from a .45 cal. 9 inch barrel, shooting either 285 or 325 gr. Great Plains bullets?
My state requires a muzzleloading pistol to have 400 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards to be legal. Doing the conversions, a 285 gr bullet at 900 fps has 513 ft lbs at the muzzle. A 325 Gr bullet at 850 fps has 522 ft lbs. I was thinking about 50 grains of FFF.
Anybody have an idea?

[volatpluvia]

I have no way of proving it, but I don't think you can get a bullet that heavy to go that fast from a 9 inch barrel using black powder.  From a 28 to 42 inch barrel, yes.  Smokeless powder, yes the get some horrendous velocities with smokeless and short barrels.
I once fired a .45 roundball from a BP revolver over a chronograph that a guy had set up at the range.  It went 800 FPS with 28 grains of pyro pistol.  But then the roundball weighs, what, less than 100 grains or maybe a little more?
volatpluvia

[SCLoyalist]

I found some old load data for a Walker Colt, which has a 9" barrel.  With a 220 gr conical and 50 gr of 3F,  they measured 1075 fps MV and 565 ft lbs energy.   Don't know how much of that would be retained at 50 yds.   With Roundball, they got a few hundred fps more MV, but under 500 ft lbs at the muzzle, but they may not have been loading powder to full capacity with roundball.

I suspect to get the 50 yd energy you're looking for, you'd have to look at one of them newfangled modern saboted bullets and try to achieve the energy threshhold through increased velocity and better velocity retention with a more favorable ballistic coefficient.

BTW, is there a particular model of pistol you're thinking of?  SCL

[BrownBear]

The Lyman BP manual lists a spectrum of loads for an 8" single shot pistol, including both RB and the 200 grain Buffalo conical.  They only recommend charges up to 30 grains of 3f or equivalent, for which they list a max of 930 fps @ 8,000+ psi and a 25 yard vel of 877fps and energy of 342 ft/lbs.  Their data for the Ruger revolver with the same conical goes to 40 grains of 3f for 1035 fps, no pressure data, and 25 yard MV/FP of 979/405.

That looks to me as though you're off in never-never land with 50 grains of 3f and heavier bullets.  You'll have to do your own chronographing and make your own judgments about safe pressures, then probably demo results for any questioning warden.

[Shovelbuck]

Thanks guys, I thought somebody may have done this.  I need to get a chrono.

[bob in the woods]

Actually, what you really need, is a bigger pistol!!    A .54 would be perfect for what you want to do.
I'm really not a fan of the "minimum" foot # rules, since IMO going to a conical is a step backwards in actual performance on game. Within it's range limitations, I believe that your normally loaded .45 with a roundball,put through the lungs, will drop any deer. It's placement, not ft/#s that kills....but , rules are rules so you are stuck with them. Still, I seriously think you'd be way better off with a bigger bore.

[Daryl]

My 9" .54 Flinter gets 1,200fps with a .526" ball.   My .44 M29 4" Smith gets just over 1,200fps with a 220gr. jacketed.  The .54 pistol has a 'power' advantage over the modern revolver in that is has a larger hole - I vote for a larger than .45 pistol.  .45's make nice target pistols, however, even the 30gr. charges in a M1860 Army was 'thought' to be just fine for running buffalo.

[Shovelbuck]

Yes, I realize that bigger is better. It is not an option is this case. It's either make this work or nothing. I simply thought somebody would have tried it and I was incorrect. I'll chrono it and see if it will work. Thanks for the replies.

[bob in the woods]

If what you have is it, or nothing; I'd load it up with 45 to 50 gr 3F and a patched ball and see what vel you get. I'll check my records and get back with what info I have.
Bob Miller

[Shovelbuck]

By "nothing" I mean I won't be hunting with a pistol. I've got more long guns than I can shoot in a season.
Long story short, ....the pistol belonged to a guy that I used to roundy with back in the day, IE Early 80's. He wanted to deer hunt with it but it's always been against the regulations until this year to use a muzzleloading pistol. He died this spring and I now have the gun. I thought it would be nice to do with it what he wanted.
Heck, I don't even know if it will shoot those big Great Plains bullets well enough to use. I've got a limited number of them and they aren't made any longer. I'm not going to shoot any of them until I need to sight it in or in this case, probably chrono a couple of them. Thanks for checking your records.

[BrownBear]

He died this spring and I now have the gun. I thought it would be nice to do with it what he wanted.

The best possible motives.  I hope you can make it work for you.  Honoring the memory of friends tops my list.

[bob in the woods]

OK.....old notes say 240 gr and 200 gr 44 cal [ .429 ] from my 44-40, as cast ,and then paper patched.
7/8th in .45 cal 10 in barrel.   240 gr had about 1000 fps with 50 gr 3F
That should do it for you. Pistol was a flintlock. That was 23 years ago, when I experimented with just about everything.  I used to drill out .54 cal maxi bullets, fill the cavity with fine shot, then seal with silicon.
Shot a deer with one!   Now I just use round balls

[bob in the woods]

Speaking on the subject of ft/# s.  My wife's Grandfather's "deer rifle" was a single shot .32 long RF
Shot an 80 gr lead bullet which I measured at just shy of 1000 ft/sec
He shot a lot of whitetails with it.

[BrownBear]

Speaking on the subject of ft/# s.  My wife's Grandfather's "deer rifle" was a single shot .32 long RF
Shot an 80 gr lead bullet which I measured at just shy of 1000 ft/sec
He shot a lot of whitetails with it.

That jibes with my experience the couple of times I've shot deer with a 25/20 (legal up here). 

On a note more related to your pistol experience, I can't tell you how many deer I've whacked (one shot kills all) with 44 Special and 45 Colt handguns, mostly 5 1/2" barrels, 250 grain bullets loaded to a nominal 750 fps.  All were inside 50 yards, and all dropped about as fast as with anything else I've used.  The bullets had large meplats, and based on comparisons with other profiles on game, I'm convinced that's mandatory for quicker kills.

There's no question in my mind that a 45 flinter is "do-able" with accurate shooting.  The bigger trick is ginning up a load that meets the legal requirements.  In fact that's a bunch hotter than I think is necessary, but the law is the law.

[Shovelbuck]

Quote..."that's a bunch hotter than I think is necessary, but the law is the law."


I couldn't agree more!

[Dphariss]

By "nothing" I mean I won't be hunting with a pistol. I've got more long guns than I can shoot in a season.
Long story short, ....the pistol belonged to a guy that I used to roundy with back in the day, IE Early 80's. He wanted to deer hunt with it but it's always been against the regulations until this year to use a muzzleloading pistol. He died this spring and I now have the gun. I thought it would be nice to do with it what he wanted.
Heck, I don't even know if it will shoot those big Great Plains bullets well enough to use. I've got a limited number of them and they aren't made any longer. I'm not going to shoot any of them until I need to sight it in or in this case, probably chrono a couple of them. Thanks for checking your records.

Get close and use a round ball.
At BP velocities ME is meaningless. Almost all BP guns are anemic by modern standards of ME.
With a 9" barrel a 45 should make good velocity and will kill deer to 50 yards. Shot placement is going to be the key.
RBs we be much easier to shoot. Depending on design it may not be possible to comfortably shoot a slug with heavy powder charges.
For hunting with a pistol I would prefer a 54-58 caliber. A 58 with a RB makes about all the recoil one would want in a typical pistol with 50-60 grains of powder.
I have never shot a deer with a 45 pistol. But my son killed his first deer with a 45 rifle with 45 grains of powder at 40+ yards. A 45 pistol at ranges of 40-50 yards should be perfectly adequate.
When you start shooting bullets pressures go way up and problems result if the breech is not properly designed. Nipple or vent erosion (unavoidable in flintocks), recoil, possible nipples blown out and bullets sliding off the powder charge are the primary concerns.  Shaking/splitting the stock is also a possibilty.

Dan

 

[Shovelbuck]

I have no doubt the round ball would do the trick, but as I stated in the original post..."My state requires a muzzleloading pistol to have 400 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards to be legal."   A round ball won't make the grade unfortunately.

[Daryl]

You'll have to use a slug - unfortunately.  Lee has 2 weights in REAL bullets, a 200gr. and a 220gr., I think, or maybe the heavier one is 240gr.

 For the purpose of shooting a deer with that pistol, I will mail you the heavy mould if you like. The bedding of the pistol must be appropriate to handling recoil as you'll have to use about 50gr. 3f for the charge. That should give you all the fpe you'll need.  The mv and therefore fpe will be higher than in a revolver of the same barrel length due to not having a cylinder gap.  The grooves hold enough lube to allow several to quite a few shots without having to wipe. You must use a good black powder lube - ie: SPG or Lyman's black Powder Gold.  ALOX or alox/beeswax mixes do not soften BP fouling.

[bob in the woods]

Exactly the info from my old records. 50 gr 3F with a 240 gr gave just shy of 1000 FPS

[Shovelbuck]

Excellent !!!!! Thanks for looking through your records Bob!  Daryl, that's a very generous offer. PM on it's way to you.

[Daryl]

Bob - were you using the Lee bullet?

[bob in the woods]

No, Daryl. I had a .44 cal that I paper patched. It was back in my "try almost anything" days.
Now I just stick to round balls!!

[Daryl]

Were I allowed to shoot a deer/bear/moose with a pistol - I'd be using my 54 barrel with 55 to 60gr. 3F and the .526" ball & .020" patch - .530" bore & easy loading - 66" twist. 55gr. shoots into 2 1/2" at 50 yards.  The more powder used, the more accurate it is, due to the rifle RB twist.

[Dphariss]

I have no doubt the round ball would do the trick, but as I stated in the original post..."My state requires a muzzleloading pistol to have 400 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards to be legal."   A round ball won't make the grade unfortunately.

Sorry.
More Fish and Game ignorance.
Dan

[Daryl]

Yup - but unfortunately, we must operate within the confines of the laws.

Mould packaged - will mail on Monday.