Sighting in problem

[blackdog]

I finished a Chambers 54 cal smooth rifle recently and finally got a chance to shoot it.  When going to sight it in, the first two shots I shoot are almost in the same hole.  After that there doesnt seem to be any ryme or reason where the shots go.  Some 8'' high, some left, etc.  This is all off a rest at 25 yards. I've tried thicker patches different charges 65-90gr but can't get it pattern consistant.  I have always used 530 balls and 015 patches.  I think it may be the heat but I've never come across this before.  Any ideas?

[rdillon]

Hmmmm.   
Sounds to me like something is loose ie front or rear site in the dovetail

Or your pin holes in your tennons were not oblonged enough to allow for lateral movement of the barrel in the stock.


Just a thought.

[blackdog]

Front sight is soldered on and the rear is tight.  I did oblong the holes, but maybe not enough?  

[Daryl]

Combination needs some work, I think. I'd go to a .525" or .526" ball and heavier patch. The heavier patch holds more lube and allows a tighter, slightly cushioned fit.
Smoothbores should shoot into a single hole at 25 yards.
Smoothbores are difficult to shoot accurately due to the single sight - consistant alignment at the rear ned of the barrel is critical to good shooting.

[blackdog]

Daryl, Do you mean a .525 ball and a .018 patch for my rifle?  I can get a .018 patch with the .530 ball I use but it doesnt seem to matter after the first two shots.  Its very frustrating not being able to find a pattern.  Its really bad, like a 18'' group at 25' yards off of a rest.  It looks like buck shot after the first two in the cold barrel.  I think I'm going to take the barrel off and oblong the pin holes more and see if that helps.

[northmn]

When you find it, its got to be something obvious.  My 20 bore smooth rifle has shown itself accurate enough on sight in to be used on deer at the 75 yard range. Haven't tried it farther.  Your experience sounds like the one I had with  BP loads in my 45-70 until I found the correct lube.  Really had a hard build up the last few inches of the barrel and would not stay on the paper.  The first shots were always good. My smooth rifle is not all that fussy, but does favor a heavier patch.  I use either Crisco or Bore Butter.  Seemed to have th emost problems with ignitions and swabing after every shot.

DP

[Ky-Flinter]

Blackdog,

Have you shot the "cold barrel, first 2 shots in the same hole" scenario multiple times?  Sounds like you have.

Once is happenstance.  Multiple times, something is changing between the 2nd and 3rd shots.  How long are you waiting between the first and second shot?  And how long between 2 and 3?  Test the barrel heating up theory by waiting for the barrel to cool between shots.  

Could the progressive build up of fouling cause this?  Test by wiping between shots.

It is puzzling.  Good luck.

-Ron

[roundball]

I finished a Chambers 54 cal smooth rifle recently and finally got a chance to shoot it.  When going to sight it in, the first two shots I shoot are almost in the same hole.  After that there doesnt seem to be any ryme or reason where the shots go.  Some 8'' high, some left, etc.  This is all off a rest at 25 yards. I've tried thicker patches different charges 65-90gr but can't get it pattern consistant.  I have always used 530 balls and 015 patches.  I think it may be the heat but I've never come across this before.  Any ideas?

I scratched my head on my GM .54cal Flint smooth rifle barrel trying to use leftover Hornady .530's + .015" patches, no good...too tight, no grooves for the excess material to go down into and get out of the way.

Switched to Hornady .520's (five-twenties) with .022" Oxyoke patches and the thing immediately started shooting like a rifle...3" at 50 yards with 80grns Goex 3F.

PS: Oxyoke doesn't actually make a .022"...its their patches that are labeled .020"...they actually mic .022".

[rdillon]

I am very puzzled why 2 will go in the same hole then the rest are scattered.  I agree with Daryl it should shoot the same hole at 25 yards.  Perhaps it is the load or fowling as some suggested.

I shoot 65gr of 3F with a .530 ball and .020 ticking with spit.

It shoots one hole all day long if I do my part!

[roundball]

a .530 ball and .020 ticking

Is yours a true .540" smoothbore...if so, do you have to use a mallet to load it?

[blackdog]

I thought I was clear enough, but it is a rifle.  Yes I've done this scenario over a couple days and at the end of both have lost sleep over it.  With .530 and a .015 I don't need a short starter, with a .018 I do and its not easy.  Niether seem to shoot any different as I've tested them cold and hot.  Poi with both loads cold is the same.  The fouling is also very slim after two shots or ten.  I use totw mink oil mixed with a little bees wax, the same as I've ever done.

[roundball]

"...I finished a Chambers 54 cal smooth rifle recently..."

"...it is a rifle..."

   OK...now I'm really confused...once and for all:

Is it a "smooth" rifle  or  a "rifled" rifle ?

[blackdog]

The kit offers smooth bore or rifled barrels.  IT IS 54 CAL. RIFLED!!!!!

[coutios]

  Have you checked the lock nails and tang bolt to insure there is no interference?? Barrel tight against stock??..  Have yor shot it off hand yet??? Have someone watch your technique you may be be doing something to cause the fliers...  I know I always take a while to settle into a new gun.  
  Just a few guesses...Best of luck.. Keep up posted

   Regards
   Dave

[blackdog]

Thanks, I checked the "normal" stuff first.  I also shot it offhand with the same results.  I have never been a flincher and don't think thats it.  I don't have any other ball sizes to use since I've never had to use them.  I may have to expiriment when I get different balls/patches.  More work tomorow.........

[smallpatch]

blackdog,

If it's a rifled barrel, you need at least a .535 ball and .018 patch.  Mine shoots a .535 with .020 patches and will maintain that ragged hole all day long.
Have you looked at your spent patches??  I think you'll find they're blown out.

Good luck.

[bob in the woods]

 I'd stick with the .018 patch, .530 ball,but switch lubes to spit just to try it. If  you can get 2 good shots, and then things fall apart......I'd bet $ on it being a patch /lube problem. In that barrel, I think that a .018 patch is minimum. Just my 1/2 cent worth.

[roundball]

One simple easy diagnostic step would be to just seat a spare lubed patch down on the powder first as a firewall, then seat a PRB normally...if the spraying stops you'll know the patches have been failing.

If this is a new barrel, the possibilitity of a sharp land end at the muzzle or sharp lands of course could be cutting patches...then leading could begin building up.

You could start and seat a ball, then pull it back out and check the patch...it wouldn't tell you if land cutting was occurring under the load of firing, but at least it could tell you if it was being cut while starting / seating.

[blackdog]

The recovered patches look good.  018  or 015's look about the same.  I don't like using short starters and with the 018's I about need a hammer.

[SCLoyalist]

Not being able to easily load a .54 cal barrels with an 0.018 patch & .530RB easily seems odd.  Have you measured or miked the bore to see what it actually is?   I'm assuming your rifle is the 46" long barreled RK7 smooth rifle Chambers offers, only with rifled barrel option.   The product description, the way I read it, sounds like the rifling may be done on a special order-case by case basis, rather than  being a stock item, so maybe it's more a  .53 cal rather than a .54.

Accuracy deteriorating after two shots suggests a cumulative factor, like temperture or fouling, and the difficulty loading suggests ball/patch sizing issues. If it's binding or pinning issues, they're apparently too subtle for your examinations to have uncovered them.   Since this is a new gun, I think you've done pretty much all a responsible customer should be expected to do.   <belay that last statement - this was a kit you assembled, wasn't it?>   Heck, it could be a combination of two or more of the suggested issues.

Were I in your shoes, I'd try one more range trip - then sit down and jot down notes organizing what I'd tried and the results, and then I'd call Jim Chambers and see what he suggests.    

Good looking gun, btw.

Good Luck, SCL

[P.W.Berkuta]

I'll throw my hat into the ring ---- in my opinion I think you have a movement or binding issue related to the barrel - sights- barrel pins - under lugs. I doubt that it is a ball-patch-powder combo. Take it apart and do a systematical check for the obvious then check for the weird stuff. Just my guess MAYBE even (God forbid) glass bed the breach area

[bob in the woods]

My first guess was that something was binding as the barrel heated up, but that was said to have been checked. Remember..1st 2 shots are fine,then it opens up. That leaves fouling. Some guns I have/had don't like heavy,greasy lubes.  If I used Track's mink oil, I wouldn't add beeswax to it. Especially if I wanted multi shot accuracy. I do use it for hunting sometimes, but as is straight from the can. I get far better results with Daryl's lube, ie nice and wet, or else using straight WD40. Anyway...binding barrel or fouling. One or the other.

[roundball]

The varied possibilities for this problem that are all coming together in this thread makes me think a good "Symptom / Fix" data base could be developed.
Have a "search box" to enter a symptom and all the possible causes would be returned as a list in priority sequence based on highest probability of fix at the top, stepping down from there...where's a programmer when you need one 

[Daryl]

I don't think it's the oblong pin holes at all - both my longrifles have round pin holes that are a snug fit to the pins - no wondering or changing of point of impact happens in a string of shots.

As a .530 bal with .018" is a snug fit - RB is correct I think in surmising it is the crown that is preventing easy loading.

Blackdog - watch the video- This is Taylor loading his .50 Virginia with a Rice barrel with rounded rifling - the load is 85gr. 2F, with a .021" denim patch and a .495" ball. The ball is only .005" smaller than the bore, yet it is easy loading.  He is using a range rod, however loading is virtually identical using the rifle's rod.


Also- some time ago, Dan Pharis posted a short video of himself loading his .54 - using a .530" or .535" ball and .022" patch, without using a short starter - merely choking up on the rod and pushing it in. His crown was such that it alowed the ball and patch to swage into the rifling- just as Taylor's does, except Taylor just gives his a smack with the starter knob.

Factory crowns need to be smoothed about 99% of the time. Emery and your thumb are all that's needed to take the sharp edges off the corners.

Here's another one- I am loading a .445" ball with .0220" patch in my GM .45 barrel- .010" rilfing & using the 3/8" hickory rod. I-too have a nicely radiused crown - smooth corners that allows the ball and patch to enter easily.


And yet, another one loading the .58 double rifle. The load is an easy loading .562" ball with .0215" patch. Accuracy is OK - best of 1 1/2" at 50 yards, both barrels for 5 shots (figure that out), but better since I switched to a .570" ball and the same patch. Rifling is only .008" deep. It will shoot an inch even with 10gr. less than the best load, which opens the group to 2" wide, both barrels shooting an inch, parallel to each other.

[Leatherbelly]

   Geez Daryls, with all this good tutoring you'll have these suthin folk shooting as good as us soon! Stoppit, gol-durnitt!!  Dayum!
Blackdog, keep us updated on your progress. I'm interested how it turns out. Was thinking about same said "kit".( smoothrifle rifled in .54)