Sighting in problem

[blackdog]

Thanks to everyone for all the help.  I'm just a baffled as anyone.  By the way the .530 and .018 combo is tight the whole way down and I smoothed the crown like I always do before I shot the first round.  Off to make some smoke, I'll keep you all posted.

[YORKTOWNE54]

pretty stout short starters Daryl, they look homemade?

[Leatherbelly]

   Lemme reply for Daryls. Yes they are home made. I like a small chunk of moose antler for my knob.A hole drilled for my ramrod. Moose antler is the best by far.Very dense with no air pockets like elk or deer.ei:non porous

[blackdog]

Ok,  After taking the barrel off and about a dozen shots I think I got a few things eliminated.  Yes, the bore is slightly undersize, explains the .530-018 hammer issue.  After taking the barrel off there was one lug that may have been digging into some excess finish in the stock but thats it. Then I checked the cast .530 balls and they all came out about .003 big.  Checked the hornady ones I had and they were smaller, so thats what I went with.  With 90 grains and the .530-018 combo I printed at best 3'' groups at 25.  Not great, but better than yesterday.  Offhand the groups open up more.   The ignition seems a little slower compared to my deluxe siler so that may account for that.  But it may be the flints since I smashed two in a row on the first shot and the other ones I have dont really spark well either.  The patches look great too so I'm not sure if the patch ball combo needs more work.  I'll give Chambers a call tommorow and see what he says.

[Jim Chambers]

No need to call.....these guys have far more experience shooting these things than I have.  I got out of competitive shooting nearly 40 years ago and have shot only for hunting in recent years.  The only other thing I can think of to check is the inlet for the underlugs.  If the underlugs fit tight  in the stock that essentially negates the slotting for the pin.  I always leave at least 1/8" of clearance at each end of the underlug.  Otherwise, all I can suggest is to try different load combinations, or check with Riley Smith at Long Hammock Barrels to see if he has any suggestions.  (Riley will be at the CLA show next week.)

[blackdog]

Thanks Jim, I'll give him a shout and see what he says about it.  The bore measures .537 by the way, I don't know if its the norm for that barrel or not.  I think its just a matter of the right combo now.........I hope

[roundball]

I wouldn't bet the farm that a mere .003" of an inch is causing an 18" group at 25 yards...ball and patch dimensions vary that much or more, right?

[Daryl]

Here are a few different sized starters. The ones with antlers are from moose.  The have very good weight and are hard and solid right through.  A wood like Hickory or maple from base-ball bats work well too, as the big one on the left, for the .69 cal. Rifle and 20 bore smoothie.

The leather 'washer' is to protect the muzzle.  The little 'stud' of brass (ctg. case glue in) is for putting the ball about 1/4" or so into the muzzle without damage. It's 'end' is cupped as you can see on the left starter, as is the 'ball' end of the short starter and gun's ram rod.  Thus, no damage results to the anterior surface of the ball is produced, even when loading tight combinations.  At most, there might be a ring mark around the ball, which does not hurt accuracy in the slightest.

[Roger Fisher]

Bout a hundred years ago I had a barrel in a long rifle that as I shot it and the barrel warmed up she shot higher and higher, walked the ball up and off the double bull buffalo  at 50 yds.  As I recall it took 5 or 6 shots till she started to walk....   I handed said barrel to another shooter and he cut her off abt 10 in back from the muzzle... we had in turn tried to lap the barrel and she had a tight spot back 10 in from the muzzle had to hammer the lap past.  (She had another tight spot back nearer the breech but not as bad.)  That barrel ended up on a hunting rifle.  And I ended up with a montana barrel on mine.

I'm told that the barrel in question had been straightened at the shop and this stress point would cause the b**** to warp as she got warm....

This is hard to blame for your 18 inch walk with your rifle however....  at 25 yds wow...   But I wonder.  Your rifle behaves so long as the barrel is cool/cold...?
Seems like you have a cool gun there (pardon the pun)  Let us know if you find the cure for her hiking around on the target.....

[Jerry V Lape]

At 25yds you shouldn't be able to get a group larger than about 4 inches regardless the patch/ball combo or even the lack of sights.  I think you need to have an experienced shooter shoot a few groups with the rifle to determine whether it might not be operator induced.  After that have him load the rifle for you blind and see just how nicely your flinch is coming along.  I am not trying to make light of your situation, but nothing else makes sense to me.  Since I don't know you I have no idea whether you are experienced on a flintlock or not.  However, I never knew a really experienced shooter who would say it wasn't a good possibility because even the best have to deal with flinching tendency almost constantly especially on a flintlock.   

[Al Lapp]

I have to agree with Jerry. I have never had much concern with flinch with my sharps or percussion guns. But just starting to get serious with flintlocks you surely have to concentrate on that followthrough. I am getting better but I still have to work on it, And my lock time is pretty good. But spreads like that I'm sure there is another problem.    Al

[blackdog]

Ok,  After taking the barrel off and about a dozen shots I think I got a few things eliminated.  Yes, the bore is slightly undersize, explains the .530-018 hammer issue.  After taking the barrel off there was one lug that may have been digging into some excess finish in the stock but thats it. Then I checked the cast .530 balls and they all came out about .003 big.  Checked the hornady ones I had and they were smaller, so thats what I went with.  With 90 grains and the .530-018 combo I printed at best 3'' groups at 25.  Not great, but better than yesterday.  Offhand the groups open up more.   The ignition seems a little slower compared to my deluxe siler so that may account for that.  But it may be the flints since I smashed two in a row on the first shot and the other ones I have dont really spark well either.  The patches look great too so I'm not sure if the patch ball combo needs more work. 

I am pretty sure I eliminated the majority the the issues down to the combo.  I have consitancy now just not as good as it could be.  I got a .020 patch a ball stuck in the barrel too so .018 is as thick as I can go with the .530's 

[Daryl]

Blackdog - are you using sopping wet patches?  A dry patch is the only way I can se a ball and patch getting stuck.  Roger is using a .457" ball in his .450" bore,w ith a .015" spit lubed patch - no wiping.  I use a .400" ball in a .398" bore, with a .019" patch, liquid lube or psit, no wiping. We loaded a .509" ball in Taylor's Rice barrel with a .019" patch and it loaded quite easily.

A ball that is .007" smaller than the bore with a .020" patch getting stuck just doesn't compute, unless something is wrong - ie: dry patch or fouled bore or both.

[SCLoyalist]

You said earlier you'd measured the bore as .537, but later you mention measuring "max width in the valleys of the bore".   Can you measure again, once for land-to-land, and then for groove-to-groove.   On my .54 Colerain, the land-to-land measurement is something like .533 and the groove-to-groove measurement is .564".

A 'valley to valley' measurement of .537 sounds more like a .50 cal than a .54.

But, I may be misinterpretting what you mean by max width in the valleys.   Anyway, having land-to-land and groove-to-groove measurements side by side might help make sense of why you're having tight loading issues.

 SCL

[blackdog]

SCL, Sorry about that I worded it wrong land to land is .535 and groove to groove is .552.  My first measurement of .537 at the lands was a bit big.  Could that be it?

[SCLoyalist]

Regardless of the  measurements, you're going to have to go to a thinner ball/patch combo than the .530/.020 you've been using.  You can't make it easier to load by going to bigger ball, thicker patch, so you might as well go smaller to find a snug but loadable combo, and see what accuracy you get.   It can't be any fun fighting that .530/.020 load downbore, especially if it's not delivering one hole groups. You think you've eliminated some of the problem factors, so it's perhaps time to go back and more or less start over.   Conventional wisdom says you'll (probably) get best accuracy with the tightest ball/patch combo you can load without deforming the ball (that's the theory, anyway).

It wouldn't hurt to lay hold of a small supply of .520 and .526 balls (Track of Wolf sells cast balls in packages of 50).  I'd go with a couple of different patching material: JoAnn Fabrics will sell you a quarter yard of  linen or pocket drill pretty cheap.   Since you're after easier loading, finding material that will compress down to around .012-.015 sounds like it would be worth trying.  You might think about cutting the powder charge back to 50 or 60 grains until you get the gun grouping better.   Start with the smallest ball, thinnest patch combo you have available and then start increasing patch thickness or ball diameter and see where you get the best grouping at acceptable level of loading effort.    

Good luck.   It sounds like you're getting there.     SCL

[Yellowleg]

Don't suppose you've checked the tang screw to see if it's tight against the back of its hole keeping the breach end of the barrel from settling into the stock?  It'd be like balancing the barrel on a marble.  Not too conducive to tight groups.

Yellowleg

[blackdog]

Yes, that was the first thing.  Trial and error from here.

[Daryl]

Anyone here with a .535" bore would be using a .530" ball and a .020" to .022" patch.  This would be the perfect scenario for a ball .005" 'under' and normal 10 oz. denim patch.

[Leatherbelly]

Don't suppose you've checked the tang screw to see if it's tight against the back of its hole keeping the breach end of the barrel from settling into the stock?  It'd be like balancing the barrel on a marble.  Not too conducive to tight groups.

Yellowleg

  Very good point. I think it's his lube. Gotta be sloppy wet. My Hugh Toenjes barreled Armstrong used a .526  ball in a .530 bore, 18-20thou patch, with no difficulty loading and shot(still shoots XLNT) super good.