vinegar/iron stain test

[BILL OKLAHOMA CITY]

I mixed the small jar with the iron shown and some cider vinegar. I tested it after 5 days "cooking" and it gave the test maple a very nice silver gray stain.  NOT what we are after.

The iron I used was some 1890s Baker flat wire barbed wire and a square nail from a old barn.

According to the Grand Pupa of vinegar stain, this mix may have to much iron in it.

I removed the iron and filtered it thru a coffee filter and mixed 50/50 with fresh vinegar. I'll see what happens next week.

Meanwhile back to the draw file and my first ML barrel.
later folks
Bill

[Trkdriver99]

Use hydrogen peroxide on a cotton ball and it will take the grey out. You only have to do it one time and can add more of the mixture and darken it.

Ronnie

[Bill of the 45th]

If you have a heat gun apply heat to that grey, and watch it change color, if you don't have a heat gun a propane torch, gas or electric stove burner can be used.  These stains need the heat to cause a reaction to get the proper color, they are not just applied, and left, all you will get is grey/green.  You will probably get a nice reddish brown color, just be careful not to scorch the wood, then apply some linseed or varnish to the test area to get the full effect on the sample.  Thats a very nice pice of maple scrap.  You may just need to dilute your mixture with some distilled water to lighten it up.

Bill

[smallpatch]

Won't work with out Blushing it with heat

[Robert Wolfe]

I don't think that the vinegar solution needs the heat gun. The acetic(?) acid volatilizes at room temp.

[BILL OKLAHOMA CITY]

According to the Grand Pupa of VINEGAR STAIN
"When you put the iron into the vinegar you get a solution of ferrous acetate and ferric acetate.  When this solution is applied to the wood and the water begins to evaporate the acetic acid evaporates right along with it.  The evaporation of the acetate leaves the iron ions, ferrous and ferric, all alone and they snag onto oxygen from the air turning into either ferrrous oxide (brownish black) or a mixture of ferric oxide (reddish orange) and ferrosoferric oxide (reddish brown) in the wood.  NO HEAT is necessary!  When the stock stops smelling like salad dressing the vinegar is gone and the reaction is complete.  This is the only respect where acetic acid from vinegar differs from nitric acid.  Nitric acid must be heated to get it to evaporate from the wood, acetic acid does not.  The oxides of iron left in the wood are exactly the same, whether they were obtained using vinegar or nitric acid." 

[bob in the woods]

I don't heat for iron /vinegar.  My batch is 3 or 4 years old. I get brown or red/brown. IMO if gray, it needs to "cook" some more. If I want more red, I add vinegar. My jar is about the same size as yours, but my iron if the same as you put in, was a lot more eaten up.  It;s the iron that gives you the color as far as I know, so get as much into the solution as you can. The vinegar will evaporate without heat. That's all the heat does, I believe.  I usually apply about 4 coats or  so. Let dry, then burnish ,then finish. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of really good info on this topic in the archives.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Not to take Bill's post But since I have a similar question on this very subjuct.

  Will white Vinegar work?  I put some rusty shavings from where some pipfitters were working.  It's been sitting for about two months.

Rich

[BILL OKLAHOMA CITY]

Not to take Bill's post But since I have a similar question on this very subjuct.

  Will white Vinegar work?  I put some rusty shavings from where some pipfitters were working.  It's been sitting for about two months.

Rich

All the research I have done on this forum points to the fact that either will work.

I think Bob Miller hit upon my problem with the gray. I didn't cook it long enough.

[Jerry V Lape]

Lurch, if those pipe fitters were using cutting oil your batch might be contaminated enough to cause undesirable colors etc. 

[Rolf]

I've been doing some experimenting with vinegar stain. I started a batch a little over a year ago with 30% vinegar that I saturated with degreased steel wool.

Since maple is in short supply here in Norway, I did the test on ash dowels.
The undiluted stain gave very dark black/brown color. About 4 weeks ago I diluted the stain (1 part stain + 3 parts vinegar). The small dowel has been dipped in the stain once and dryed for 24h. The large dowel has been dipped and dryed 24h ,4 times with the same stain. Each new application turned the wood more reddish brown. No heat was applied.



Best regards
Rolfkt

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I am not a chemist, but it seems somewhere I read that the heat actually helps convert some of the Ferrous Oxide (FeO- Black) and Ferrosoferric Oxide  ((Fe3O4 - Black)),  into Ferric Oxide (Fe2O3 - dark red/rust - jewelers rouge) and thereby producing more red/brown color..........  

When I stain with Ferric Nitrate Fe(NO3)3.9H2O - Synonyms: Nitric acid, iron (3+) salt nonahydrate; iron nitrate nonahydrate; iron trinitrate ) ............. in alcohol or water the initial color is grey/black green...even though the alcohol evaporates within a very few minutes........the heat gun then brings out the desired color, Same reaction, IIRC.....................Never used the vinegar/iron mix so I am not sure......I think the article is in the archives somewhere, but I can't find it.

Iron and Vinegar produce Ferrous acetate[Fe3O(OAc)6(H2O)3]OAc (OAc is CH3CO2-), Iron(II) acetate is an off-white or light brown solid ionic compound of iron. It is highly soluble in water and it forms a light green tetrahydrate. Iron(II) acetate is manufactured from scrap iron and acetic acid, and it is used as a mordant by the dye industry.  A Mordant is used to oxidize or burn/blacken

It can also be made by the reaction of ferrous oxide or ferrous hydroxide with concentrated acetic acid.


All these solutions apparently oxidize the wood to some degree ......depending on the grain exposure...thereby helping black stripes to show.................

OK, there is the amateur chemistry...perhaps a real chemist can help

[flehto]

After seeing some examples of vinegar stained stocks, I scoured the neighborhood for old, rusty barbed wire and found a good supply. Took cider vinegar and put plenty of the barbed wire in it and waited 4 mos and the result was a nasty, grayish black stain. Added more rusty wire and vinegar and 6 mos later, the same crappy color. Because of this, I forgot about it and 3 yrs later, lo and behold a nice reddish brown color. Don't think I'll ever use it because of the excellent stains on the market and besides, too much much bother to produce a stain w/ erratic predictability...Fred

[skillman]

One thing about it, there seems to be a lot of interest in vinegar/iron stain. I think there have been about 4 posts in the last couple of weeks. I'm mixing up a batch as we speak. Lots of old barbed wire here on the ranch. It ought to be interesting to see how many of us keep up on this. In about a year we should have some really good info.
Steve

[b bogart]

I made my batch by soaking some old files to "sharpen" them. After a day or two of soaking I removed the files and lightly oiled them. I had been reading about the vinegar/steel stain, and I decided to use the "sharpening byproduct on a trial basis. It was almost black and had all kinds of floaters on the top.  I strained it thru an old teeshirt.  I think it came out OK! A little more brown than I wanted but what the heck. As I understand it I may be able to add fresh vinegar to get more reddish??? I'll experiment on this next build.

[Dphariss]

The problem with vinegar stain is that I cannot see anyone in the 18th century spending weeks making a stain when he could have stain ready in hours (I need it tomorrow make it today) at the most with Nitric which was readily available in Colonial America.
With H.C. materials, nitric or ferric nitrate available sending weeks making stain with vinegar makes little sense.

Dan

[BILL OKLAHOMA CITY]

lets see, hmmm, I have a cnc machined barrel, a machined lock, a machined double set trigger. I don't think I am going to be too concerned about vinegar/iron stain not being hc/pc correct.
 Be that as it may, I would bet that vinegar and iron stain WAS used on rifles in the 18th century.
And besides, I like the color of vinegar/iron stain.

[smallpatch]

Bill,

Use the stain you want to use.  It's your gun, it really doesn't matter.

However, like Dan said, we forget these guys owned a business.  Their existence depended on finishing a product.  Not like most of OUR gunbuilding.  A guy couldn't practically wait 6 months for stain to finish a gun for a customer??

Like I said, place the importance on HC/PC that you want.  If it looks good use it.  I think it's kind of cool to make your own stain, out of whatever you can.  But it doesn't seem to probable that it was used by a period gun builder, maybe a HOBBY gun builder

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't remember anything about this process of getting the colors below, but I now have a great jug of stinky rusty vinegar on my shelf.

[Dphariss]

lets see, hmmm, I have a cnc machined barrel, a machined lock, a machined double set trigger. I don't think I am going to be too concerned about vinegar/iron stain not being hc/pc correct.
 Be that as it may, I would bet that vinegar and iron stain WAS used on rifles in the 18th century.
And besides, I like the color of vinegar/iron stain.

I use Ferric Nitrate because I can be fairly certain the color is correct.
I use various boiled linseed oil finishes for the same reason.
I was simply trying to save you some time and possible aggravation since I just had another gunsmith WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE IRON STAINS tell me at the Guild Fair of the same grey results with vinegar/iron mentioned here. Another posting here seems to have waited months for a good stain to develop, this makes no sense in the contemporary or historical context. For me Ferric Nitrate solution from acid and iron or from the crystals is a no brainer. Faster, easier and will produce the color that would likely have been on that particular piece of wood had it been used on an original rifle. Whats not to like?
But some folks like to play with stuff. So be it.
It should occur to people that what I do or mention or advocate is MY OPINION on the subject and it is extremely difficult for me setting at my computer to hold a gun on someone and force them to comply with "my" way of doing things. Any fool knows that modern parts are going to be made on modern machines but some people are compelled to drag this vacuous, tired (heard it since I was a kid) argument out if someone mentions HC materials or methods as a justification for their doing something they want to do. Justification is not needed, its a free country people can do what ever they want. But the idea here (or so I thought) is to make a gun that looks  similar to what would have been produced at some point in the past.
My OPINION on the machined barrels, locks etc is this. First its not practical to make the parts as they were made in 1780 the industry that created them is gone, for 150 years or more in some cases. Should we abandon modern steel making and smelt our own iron in a furnace in our back yards to avoid modern processes? Good luck finding high grade iron ore. Is teh brass made in the same manner as in 1780?
 Second. Once finished it is very difficult to determine how a barrel or lock was made. But if the wood finish is screwed up or is synthetic stain and/or plastic "oil" its often possible to determine this at a considerable distance.

Please forgive my intrusion.

Dan

[Tom Currie]

In previous posts regarding vinegar based stains, a couple points were made.

Everyone , even on the frontier, probably had vinegar available, would nitric acid have been that available ?

The vinegar/iron brew only had to be made once the first time, then I think just given a kick once in a while. No 3 month wait after the first time. Readilly available in a crock on the shelf.

[whitebear]

The problem with vinegar stain is that I cannot see anyone in the 18th century spending weeks making a stain when he could have stain ready in hours (I need it tomorrow make it today) at the most with Nitric which was readily available in Colonial America.
With H.C. materials, nitric or ferric nitrate available sending weeks making stain with vinegar makes little sense.

Dan

If the person made guns professionally I would think that he would have a batch of whatever kind of stain he used on hand at all times and not wait until the day before to make the stain for just one gun at a time.  My thoughts.

[rich pierce]

As said above, the vinegar stain is fun and we can imagine that anyone could make it.  There's much fun in imagining ourselves as frontier gunsmiths or self-reliant types who would not buy something they could easily make.  But, aquafortis is documented and vinegar and iron is not.  Even in the most remote areas, gunsmiths apparently were able to purchase the latest locks.  Look at the Appalachian mountain rifles with the latest style, export quality English locks.  And trade goods of all kinds were being distributed to Native Americans hundreds of miles distant to the most remote gunsmith.  So I never bought into the theory that folks "way out back" could not get anything they needed for their business, or that gunsmiths operated so far out on the frontier that there were no settlements and no customers.

For me, gunmaking is a hobby and the things I do, I do for fun.  Trying a vinegar stain is one of those fun things and it doesn't have to be a PC method for me to enjoy trying it.  But like Dan, I want the end result to be very close to the tones found on original rifles.  Adding H2O2 to get the right color after applying vinegar and iron stain kind of takes away the "frontier aura" of a vinegar stain to me, but it sure reddens things up nicely.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have found the Vinegar stain very difficult to get a specific color I wanted. In other words, not predictable. Yes, it works, and the color is a variety of warm browns, but when I want golden, or reddish, I use something else. However, I will continue to use the vinegar stain, because I feel that it is the 'right' stain for certain projects.

If a maker has a specific tone he wants from gun to gun, or has an exact color in mind, the vinegar is too much of a $#@* shoot.

As Rich sez, the AF is documented.

Maybe the vinegar stain documentation got lost in the same fire as the 'Transitional Rifle' documents.

Tom

[JTR]

I'll bet that transitional rifle was finished with vinegar stain!
John