Author Topic: Paraffin Oil  (Read 13134 times)

Offline T*O*F

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Paraffin Oil
« on: August 25, 2010, 04:54:26 PM »
Paraffin oil......exactly what is it and what generic form is it available in?

I have always used water as a wetting medium when rubbing down a stock.  The instructions on the abrasive cans recommend paraffin oil.  A google search turned up conflicting information.
a. Woodworking suppliers have it for $20+ for a quart.....3 lifetime's supply.
b. Some have said that lamp oil is paraffin oil, but a seller of high quality lamps says don't waste your money, because lamp oil is just kerosine.  This because in the UK and Australia, lamp oil is called kerosine, so they can get past the truth in advertising by selling kerosine labeled "lamp oil."
c.  Chemical definitions say it is refined in various viscosities from wax on up.

What do you use on a linseed based finish, as a wetting medium, to rub it out?  Something more viscous than water seems desireable since it just beads up and runs off.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 04:59:45 PM »
At Michaels and probably other stores you can buy oil for decorative lamps that says "Paraffin Oil"  on the label.  I use it in my oil lamp for blackening parts I am inletting........ never thought of using it to rub down the finish

Have you tried mineral oil??
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 05:00:22 PM by DrTimBoone »
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sidreilley

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 05:19:29 PM »
Generally speaking, paraffin is British for kerosene, much as a screw driver is a turnscrew or a torch is a flashlight. In maintainence manuals for British motorbikes one is often advised to use paraffin for cleaning chains, etc.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 05:35:28 PM »
Paraffin oil......exactly what is it and what generic form is it available in?

I have always used water as a wetting medium when rubbing down a stock.  The instructions on the abrasive cans recommend paraffin oil.  A google search turned up conflicting information.
a. Woodworking suppliers have it for $20+ for a quart.....3 lifetime's supply.
b. Some have said that lamp oil is paraffin oil, but a seller of high quality lamps says don't waste your money, because lamp oil is just kerosine.  This because in the UK and Australia, lamp oil is called kerosine, so they can get past the truth in advertising by selling kerosine labeled "lamp oil."
c.  Chemical definitions say it is refined in various viscosities from wax on up.

What do you use on a linseed based finish, as a wetting medium, to rub it out?  Something more viscous than water seems desireable since it just beads up and runs off.

Linseed oil what else ;D
I use my thinner home cooked oil for this. Diaper flannel folded to a 2" or less square pad. Wet with oil then dab in rottenstone, rub to suit. Super fast drying oils like Linspeed or Tru-oil will not work.
I suppose if the stock were well sealed with some plastic product the petroleum would be OK.
BUT. No matter what you might read anywhere petroleum and gunstocks are a bad mix.
You do not want petroleum distillate (think WD-40) in incised carving for example.
There is a HOST of silliness in rubbing out of gunstocks especially in old gunstocking/carving books by people that should know better.

Dan
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Offline Robby

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 05:57:38 PM »
Tof  I have a can of Behlen's, bought some years ago at Woodcraft's. It contains Alphatic Petroleum Distillates, Toulene, Dinonylnophthylsulfonic acid, and does smell very slightly of kerosine. For all that I use plain old hardware store boiled linseed oil half the time. All it does is hold the abrasives in suspension while you rub down the finish. It all has to be cleaned off anyway.
Robby
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 06:05:10 PM »
I think I will be radical and try rubbing back with Kramer's Best Antique Restorer as the medium..... turpentine based....I am constantly amazed at this stuff
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 06:11:44 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 06:09:08 PM »
Quote
At Michaels and probably other stores you can buy oil for decorative lamps that says "Paraffin Oil"  on the label.
Tim, see b.  I have no intention of using kersosine as it might be reactive with the finish.

Quote
Have you tried mineral oil??
Considered it.  Seems like it might be the closest substitute.

Dan, have used linseed and rottenstone as a preliminary grain and pore filler on walnut.  This was used historically.  Unfortunately, I don't have any of your "homebrew" and ain't gonna spend the time to make some.  I've been @$#%&*@ around with this stock for almost 3 weeks now trying to get the finish I want.  Thought I would try Linspeed for a change.  With our high humidity and heat, and wouldn't dry and was gummy.  Had to take it off.  Then I tryed Formby's satin tung oil as a base with Linspeed over it.  Same problem.  Took it off.  Then I tryed refined artist's linseed with dryers added.  Same problem.  Took it off.  Finally used MinWax Antique Oil.  It dried good with no streaking and good depth to the figure.  Been drying for 5 days now and am ready to rub it out.  I think I would rather use something this is inert and non-drying to rub it out.  It's an English sporting rifle....no incised carving.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 06:19:00 PM »
Show us some b/4 and after pics Dave.... and share with us what you finally settle on.... this is an area of interest for me....I was looking at all of the different finishes on guns at the CLA and those satin finishes are mighty attractive!!

On the other hand, I understand from some folks that English Sporting rifles were kept pretty well oiled with linseed oil, year after year by travelling tinkers who went from estate to estate???
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keweenaw

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 07:05:29 PM »
Paraffin oil is nothing but another name for mineral oil - see Fisher Scientific.  It's mostly long chain hydrocarbons so it doesn't evaporate or dry.  It's much cleaner than kerosene, nontoxic and nonreactive.  You can buy ultrapure lamp oil which is paraffin oil and doesn't smoke and is odorless, unlike kerosene.  We used this in the lantern we hang outside our hunting camp at night.  A mistake as the stuff solidifies at winter temperatures in da UP of Michigan!  Personally I think mineral oil is a bit heavy for use in rubbing out a finish.  I like Tried and Tru Danish oil, which is basically a boiled linseed oil.   Or you can simply use some cooking oil.

Tom 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 07:26:07 PM »
Quote
At Michaels and probably other stores you can buy oil for decorative lamps that says "Paraffin Oil"  on the label.
Tim, see b.  I have no intention of using kersosine as it might be reactive with the finish.

Quote
Have you tried mineral oil??
Considered it.  Seems like it might be the closest substitute.

Dan, have used linseed and rottenstone as a preliminary grain and pore filler on walnut.  This was used historically.  Unfortunately, I don't have any of your "homebrew" and ain't gonna spend the time to make some.  I've been @$#%&*@ around with this stock for almost 3 weeks now trying to get the finish I want.  Thought I would try Linspeed for a change.  With our high humidity and heat, and wouldn't dry and was gummy.  Had to take it off.  Then I tryed Formby's satin tung oil as a base with Linspeed over it.  Same problem.  Took it off.  Then I tryed refined artist's linseed with dryers added.  Same problem.  Took it off.  Finally used MinWax Antique Oil.  It dried good with no streaking and good depth to the figure.  Been drying for 5 days now and am ready to rub it out.  I think I would rather use something this is inert and non-drying to rub it out.  It's an English sporting rifle....no incised carving.

If you don't want to spend a few hours making finish there is not much I can add.
There are a host of store bought kits and various recommendations for filling walnut. IMO they all universally suck.
If Chambers Oil will skin over and get thick it could be used for fill. I have not tried it however and cannot say if it will work or not.
I use thick or thicker than molasses linseed for fill. Seal with linseed and turp or linseed/grumbachers oil paint medium III/turp, let set a day then start with the thick oil. In sunny warm weather I can fill American walnut in 2-4 days 4-8 coats. With far less labor than most other things that generally have problems with fill popping out of pores etc.
Slather on heavy and 0000 steel wool off in 2-4 hours in sun. Carved guns require more care in applying rub in only to fill and great care if heavy coats steel wooled on the open areas.
In my experience it trying almost anything you have ever heard of to fill wlanut, this is best and safest.
The heavy coats will set to a horrid wrinkly stuff. As soon as it will not stick to steel wool I take it off. Usually 2 coats a day. Maybe one in winter.
If the stock is properly prepared it should need no rub out before checkering so there is no tool wear from abrasives unless left over from sanding. Use the thinned seal coat mix in the checkering when done.
I filled the 16 bore in about 4 coats including the seal coat but its European Walnut.
This is after quite a but of use, lots of shooting and 2 hunting seasons, with no added oil.


Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 07:27:20 PM »
I only use rottenstone as the final polish before putting on the last coat of finish.

Dan
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 07:30:31 PM »
Quote
Show us some b/4 and after pics Dave

Tim,
This is the blank I started with.  Thought it had some interesting character, IF I could bring it out.



This is after shaping.  No final pics yet.



As an aside, this is my first attempt at engraving English scroll since studying with Brian Marshall in Stockton, CA.  The triggerguard is a smoke pull from a Manton gun of the same period.  Lock design is my own.  The pattern underneath will frame my signature on the barrel.  Trigger plate, entry thimble, cap box, barrel key and escutcheons are all colorcased, but they didn't turn out as well as I had hoped.  Haven't decided what to do with the lock yet.  Everything else is blued.

Dave Kanger

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Offline Joe Stein

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 10:32:53 PM »
Nice engraving, Dave.  Thanks for the thread, lots of good information.
-Joe

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 11:02:00 PM »
It is a pretty stick!! When finished I bet it will pop your eyes out.  I like the engraving. very nice for the percussion era..... Did they usually leave them bright during that period or blue them??   Personally I am not a fan of color case hardening..... my Pedersoli has that ......but, everyone has different tastes.
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Offline longcruise

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 12:19:20 AM »
Dave, you are doing Brian Marshall proud!

What I have done to fill walnut grain is to circular sand it with a pad of 320 paper frequently dipped in shellac.  when dry rub it down good with steel wool or scotchbrite and then repeat.  Then oil.

Don't know where stain might fit in becuase i don't stain walnut.  Just oil.
Mike Lee

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 03:38:11 AM »
Dave,

What Robby said.  The Behlen's paraffin oil is great stuff....

       Ed
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keweenaw

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 04:16:43 PM »
English finishes of the period you're working at have a moderate amount of finish on the surface of the wood and are mostly, but not completely filled.    This stock was dyed with a water soluble aniline dye, and the fill is rottenstone in Chamber's oil finish.  I put the finish on, dusted it with rottenstone while wet and wiped it all off with my hand.  If it was hard to get off the surface because the finish was setting, I just dampened the surface with a touch more finish before wiping off.  I suppose that there were about 5 coats of finish with fill and about 3 coats of finish on top of that wiped off as it tacked.  Your piece of wood has a more open grain and I would fill it with a dark commercial wood filler after I had dyed it to the color I wanted with a light fast, non grain raising aniline dye.   The trick on a piece of wood like that is to accentuate the grain without the entire piece getting too dark. 

On another point, your cheekpiece shape is great but, and it may be just the photo, it looks to me like there is a tiny kink is the bottom edge of the piece about 3/4" back from the front.  A few licks with some fine paper wrapped around whatever would fair it out.  As I said it may be just the picture, look at the photo and the stock.  I've always found that to be one of the hardest areas of the stock to get just right. 

Tom

Tom

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 05:45:42 PM »
Quote
The trick on a piece of wood like that is to accentuate the grain without the entire piece getting too dark.
 
Tom,
I like dark guns and my client requested that it be dark.  I used my chromic acid treatment that I have described elsewhere in the past.  I don't use fillers.  The finish is the filler, put on and taken off until all the pores are filled.  Then a final coat followed by a thinned, flow coat and rubbed.

It's personal preference, but I think guns finished in your manner look flat.  The grain shows but has no character.  I try to achieve a finish where the character of the grain glows against the backdrop of the plain parts.  In the end, we do what the customer wants...with nudging toward the way we want. ;)

Quote
On another point, your cheekpiece shape is great but, and it may be just the photo, it looks to me like there is a tiny kink is the bottom edge of the piece about 3/4" back from the front
.
These pictures were taken a while ago.  I futzed with the shape of the cheekpiece half a dozen times.  It now terminates where that kink used to be.

Just curious....I see your screw is in the same location as mine, instead of further back where it belongs.  Did you have to move your trigger plate back so the trigger would hit the sear?  That little detail would have done me in if I had not caught it during a period of cogitation, because I missed it in the initial layout.  Tried 3 different plates but only this one would work.  Wasn't real happy about it.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 06:38:22 PM »
Linseed oil will shrink into the pores somewhat over time. But the English guns that were used generally had oil added at the end of every  shooting season. This would replace any oil that was worn away from handling.
Apparently there were traveling stock finishers that did this. Guns that hung on the wall etc that did not get oil added may show sunken fill depending on the oil used for the fill originally.
This comes to me second hand from a friend who had some conversations on finishes with Kit Ravenshear.
Using sanding dust in the oil will add solids and perhaps reduce shrinkage but its a PITA too for me anyway. Tried it and did not like it, no benefit for the extra work.

I think that a great deal of the "eye of Newt mixed with bat wigs applied under a new moon" comes from people who either were trying to make things appear more difficult than they were to generate business or people who had listened to to some such and then wrote a book or magazine article about it.
Then we have folks like Hal Hartley who, for example, used to char curly maple with a torch then sand it back to bring out the figure.
Monte Kennedy, Hartley, Linden etc  did WONDERFUL work in checkering stocks but they were not Kentucky rifle makers for the most part and Hartley at least could not make a good Kentucky at least from the photo of his attempt found in Kennedy's book. They were "stuck" with post industrial revolution varnishes for stock finish. They wanted to "waterproof" the stock. This is virtually impossible but they tried (note the number of moderns sporting plastic stocks for this reason). The Linseed oil they had access to was NOT what was used as stock finish during the 18th and early 19th centuries and even much later in England from reports I have heard.
They were, for one example, using bar top varnishes then using a low speed buffer to take it off to fill walnut. Using varnishes with solvent bases, wet sanding etc, makes me wonder if they were addicted by "huffing" solvents. I don't think they knew any better. By their time "boiled linseed oil" was the stuff made for paint thinner or painting on board fences and was not suitable for finishing stocks in any reasonable length of time. They though that the hard "waterproof" finishes were good, but they do not work as well on gunstocks as on bar tops. Bar tops seldom see 100 degree temperature changes in the period of minutes as a gunstock can. When subjected to this many hard finishes will fail since they lack the elasticity that will allow them to move with the wood as it changes dimension due to temp changes etc.
The really shiny waterproof plastic finishes used for a time by Remington are the poster child for this. It as possible to actually hear the finish cracking. A friend told me of a hunter in a camp he was in bringing such into a warm cabin and it was possible to hear the finish tinking and crackling as due the temperature shock. The cracks then admit water freely.
Flat finishes that look painted on are another hallmark of "plastic oil" finishes.
Much of the hard, fast drying varnish technology comes from the advent of the industrial revolution and factory made finishes, usually for indoor use like furniture and wood work and the loss, for the most part,  of the knowledge on how to make the old stock oils and varnishes. A true spar varnish is about as good as it gets for durability on a gunstock. But these are now chock full of aromatic solvents that are hazardous to your health.
As a result of this there is a great deal of hoop jumping done to finish gunstocks that is not necessary or even desirable. Factory made love the fast drying stuff they can finish stocks in their manner much faster and when making 200-1000 guns a day this is a factor.
I was watching the Outdoor Channel and the guy that runs Midway was polishing a stock. Of course he SELLS stuff so he spent twice as long and used 3 times and much stuff as needed and water as a cutting fluid. Yeah it will work but  ::) Of course this is best if you use some cheap hard varnish or plastic sold as stock finish. They, in an earlier "infomercial"  also recommend using 100 grit paper to remove old finishes and such ::) ::) ::) How to maintain the metal to wood fit was not touched upon IIRC.
 Rottenstone and  store bought boiled oil will do for cutting fluid, the stock finish is done to the point it will all be wiped off anyway. But most store bought "stock finishes" and furniture varnishes dry too fast for this so people use mineral oil, paraffin oil or water and of course this is recommended by the folks that SELL the fast drying varnishes that won't work as a rubbing lubricant and may not even flatten properly and thus REQUIRE rubbing out with the stuff they then sell for the purpose.
Heh heh heh. Its called marketing I guess. Its a win-win for the merchant at least.

Dan
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 08:54:53 PM »
Quote
Linseed oil will shrink into the pores somewhat over time. But the English guns that were used generally had oil added at the end of every  shooting season. This would replace any oil that was worn away from handling.  Apparently there were traveling stock finishers that did this.
Dan,
Just for clarification...........we often see this statement and people get the impression that a new coating of oil was just rubbed on each gun and allowed to dry.  In reality, most of those English guns were "bespoke" or "best" guns and originally had the oil finish applied using the French Polish method.  Those traveling stock finishers were well trained in repairing and refinishing those guns to their original splendor using that method.

In the backwoods of America, it's a different story.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 11:15:39 PM »
Quote
Linseed oil will shrink into the pores somewhat over time. But the English guns that were used generally had oil added at the end of every  shooting season. This would replace any oil that was worn away from handling.  Apparently there were traveling stock finishers that did this.
Dan,
Just for clarification...........we often see this statement and people get the impression that a new coating of oil was just rubbed on each gun and allowed to dry.  In reality, most of those English guns were "bespoke" or "best" guns and originally had the oil finish applied using the French Polish method.  Those traveling stock finishers were well trained in repairing and refinishing those guns to their original splendor using that method.

In the backwoods of America, it's a different story.

The degree of work done would depend on the wear needing repair.  In many cases I suspect just enough oil to restore a shine would have been sufficient. But I have no one I can ask who would actually know.
I have not the slightest idea what a "French Polish" is (just looked it up on "Wikipedia", lots of work and in this case was a shellac finish). I can't imagine a gunmaker going to this amount of work when less would produce the same thing. They were making these things for money after all and its only necessary to get a decent smooth finish on the wood, apply finish to fill the grain then rottenstone and oil to final polish then a microscopic coat as a final shine. On maple its even easier.
I cannot imagine someone rubbing out every coat with abrasive but anything is possible.
Looks like more "Eye of Newt" stuff afterall if one can make things appear more difficult one can charge more. After all if the customer is told it takes about two hours total labor from first coat to final finish they might want to pay less. So you tell the customer it takes three weeks or a month. In a month the finish is fully cured after setting for 2-3 weeks since the actual work took a week or less but you tell the customer its just been finished.
From reading what many here do to finish stocks I can only say that people, and many products on the market, make this far more difficult than it needs to be.
Most people have been indoctrinated to the extent that they can't seem to finish wood with less that 30-40 coats of some magic elixir. If they want to do this more power to them.

Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2010, 06:09:22 AM »
Tom Snyder is correct, paraffin oil is mineral oil not kerosene.  Petrol oils/distillates and curing oils don't compliment each other well at all - one or the other but not both.  Depending on the situation, kerosene can be used as a solvent for cleaning as it will evaporate if given sufficient time but the poor quality of refined petrol these days, even what looks like super clear #1 oil will leave residuals behind that will need to be removed with yet another solvent.  French finish is nothing more than a rubbed shellac and it doesn't hold up on guns.  Get mineral oil onto a bare spot that was missed or let it penetrate through a crack, anyway it comes into contact with the wood and no other finish will take in those spots.  Ask 50 different people who do traditional finishes and you'll get 50 different answers as to technique and why each considers theirs the best but truth be known, there's no one-size-fits-all finish.  I know one thing, all those speedy and other DIY'er finish products being hawked by gun retailers are very good for my business - it's as easy as 1,2,3 ... then pay me to make the ugly go away.   :)
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keweenaw

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2010, 05:17:03 PM »
TOF,

That screw is actually exactly where it's supposed to be.  This is  an Alex Henry sporting rifle and that screw goes up into the bottom of the standing breech.  The trigger guard screws into a deep lug on the trigger plate and the rear tang screw comes down into the top of the same lug - no room to move anything around.

This finish is anything but flat.  When someone uses a filler and gets a flat finish it's because they don't know what they're doing and they've left filler on the surface of the  wood.  As I said on this piece of English walnut, which has very fine pores, the filler is just rottenstone flowed in with the finish and wiped off.  Like most pieces of English, there isn't a grain pattern per se, rather dark mineral lines in the wood.  A dark finish on a piece of wood like this can make an expensive piece of wood look like a cheap piece.


Or does this look flat?

Tom

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2010, 05:29:11 PM »
Did you do the bottom gun with Chambers and rottenstone only??
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Re: Paraffin Oil
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »
The bottom rifle is one of Mark Silver's.  I'm not sure that Mark ever uses the same finishing approach twice but as I recall that had a nongrain raising aniline dye, the fill was definitely rottenstone  and as I recall it was Chamber's Oil.  That's an exceptional piece of California grown English, >$600, and was scraped with no sanding at all.  The whole trick of doing a fill with something other than sanding in or simply filling the pores with finish is to get the filler all off the surface but leave it in the pores.  Wipe like mad with paper towels, etc. The trouble most people have with this is trying to fill too large of an area at one time and the filler dries on the surface and is terribly hard to wipe off. With rottenstone it takes many coats to get a fill this way and it's my preferred approach on English walnut but I've found it too slow to do on most American Walnut.  Of course the approach taken also depends on what look one is trying to achieve.  With the Henry I was trying to get a finish that looked like it came out of Henry's shop.  Filled, but not perfectly, significant finish on the surface but not built up.  Side by side with some English guns with intact original finishes, I came pretty close.  The coloring was complicated by the fact that that stock had a edge of perfectly white sap wood in it that needed to disappear.  I've never found a way to do that other than with a water soluble aniline dye.

Tom