Author Topic: When using aquafortis stain, is the chatoyancy of the curly maple maintained...  (Read 28526 times)

BILL OKLAHOMA CITY

  • Guest
When using aquafortis stain, is the chatoyancy of the curly maple maintained
 or is it lost?

billd

  • Guest
chatoyancy   ??? 

BILL OKLAHOMA CITY

  • Guest
chatoyancy   ??? 

"Chatoyancy can also be used to refer to a similar effect in woodworking, where certain finishes will cause the wood grain to achieve a striking three-dimensional appearance.[1] This effect is often highly sought after, and is sometimes referred to as "wet look", since wetting wood with water often displays the chatoyancy, albeit only until the wood dries. Oil finishes and shellac can bring out the effect strongly"

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7500
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Billd,
Definition of CHATOYANT
: having a changeable luster or color with an undulating narrow band of white light <a chatoyant gem>

Bill OKC,
Yes.  Those that use AF, swear it is unsurpassed in this quality.  Others disagree.  Try it on some scraps and you will see.

-Ron (formerly from OKC)
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

BILL OKLAHOMA CITY

  • Guest
Billd,
Definition of CHATOYANT
: having a changeable luster or color with an undulating narrow band of white light <a chatoyant gem>

Bill OKC,
Yes.  Those that use AF, swear it is unsurpassed in this quality.  Others disagree.  Try it on some scraps and you will see.

-Ron (formerly from OKC)

Thank you

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7908
Interesting but how do you pronounce the word?      Gary (drove through Oklahoma City once)

ramserl

  • Guest
went over my mechanical mind thanks for the clarification
work with my hands for a reason

BILL OKLAHOMA CITY

  • Guest
Interesting but how do you pronounce the word?      Gary (drove through Oklahoma City once)

I wouldn't have a clue. I ran accross the word while searching for curly maple finishing.
the man had a piece of finished curly that was out of this world.

Mike R

  • Guest
the answer is YES.  The word is used in mineralogy to describe the optical effects of satiny/wavy fibrous structure in some minerals.  Pronounced; 'shatoyancee'

catseye stones and tigers eye stones have this effect...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:58:22 PM by Mike R »

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19534
Asphaltum gives some wild contrast and chatoyancy.  Depending on the state of AQF or vinegar and iron, it is possible to get a muddy stain if all goes wrong.  I think the chatoyancy also depends to a great extent on the properties of the finish.  Not that I'm an expert on chatoyancy- only larned the word today.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Chatoyance:
"a Cajun compound word used to describe an annoying chatter"

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. As Rich says, a stain can bring out the grain or muddy it. I think you must practice on a piece of scrap to determine how the wood likes the stain. I have had both great and poor chatoyance(whew, had to re-spell that three times) using AF and vinegar stain. Much of your clarity will depend upon the level of your surface finish.

Wood taken to 600 grit will be almost polished, and show great coloration and life in the grain, while a roughly scraped surface will be dead or dull.

While old guns may have been scraped for finish, they have had years of polishing to bring out the sheen.

Don Getz' trick of burnishing the finished stock with a brown paper bag leaves a lovely soft glow to the wood, while polishing off some of the dullness.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
I have NEVER experienced AF "muddying the grain".  However, if you really want to muddy the grain, you can use any aniline dye.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
I have NEVER experienced AF "muddying the grain".  However, if you really want to muddy the grain, you can use any aniline dye.   ;)

Some store bought AF that is adulterated with hydrochloric will do this or seems to. Mad Monk stated this and my experience seems to confirm.
I have not seen this with my homemade stain made with nitric and water only. Nice definition of the curl and such.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7017
Bill,
Any dye like aniline, or oxidizing acid like nitric, generally will highlight figure in wood and not muddy the grain.  Pigmented stains would be the most likely to hide figure and grain but when used well can also produce nice results.  I produce the effect you described by using multiple layers of color dye and then applying an oil finish.  I build up the finish until I have a satin gloss, which also highlights the depth of color in the wood.  Aquafortis, vinegar, and nitric acid produce nice deep colors but I find that alone they never give me the full spectrum of color that I want in maple.  I always add more color with dyes or stain.  The process of achieving the effect you want is really not very hard.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
   Not to steal this thread from billl,  Acer stated sanding to 600 grit the woo will be almost polished.  What about 1000 or 1200 grit.  Would this bring the color and grain even more, or would it be pointless?

  I ask because I planned on doing just that.  If nothing else looks good on my first, The wood will.

        Rich

Mike R

  • Guest
for what it is worth, I agree that a better "polish" brings out the "chatoyancy" of the wood--that is because it is an opitcal effect and dull finishes mask it somewhat.

Offline Long John

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Give me Liberty or give me Death
Rich,

I switch to 0000 steel wool after using a finely polished scraper for wood finishing.  I don't think going to 1200 grit would help all that much with wood.  Steel wool does.  After the steel wool I use hemp rope.  That's right!  I make a brush out of large diameter hemp rope.  Get some 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch hemp rope and cut it into 6 inch lengths.  Lay the lengths side by side and wrap the bunch of rope with some twine real tight until you have a cylinder of hemp rope about 6 inches long with the ends of the rope fibers sticking out the end on each side.  Use the hemp fibers as a brush and vigorously brush the wood and carving.  It gives you a nice smooth statiny sheen that takes stain and finish quite well.  This is the method I used for this result, below



Iron/vinegar stain burnished with a hemp brush, followed by Jim chambers stock finish.

Best Regards,

JMC

Offline bdixon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • F & AM #376.
Re: When using aquafortis stain, is the chatoyancy of the curly maple maintained
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 05:50:13 PM »
Here is a generic test that I did. Second pic is finished product.



« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:51:20 PM by bdixon66 »

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Just getting back after 9 year old computer died. Now using new one.

The thing with the ferric nitrate (nitrate of iron) and the appearance of the wood has a good bit to do with how one converts the water-soluble iron (ferric nitrate) to the water-insoluble ferric oxide.

When I first got into the nitrate of iron stain I started to look at the test blocks with a microscope.  On blocks where the stained wood seemed to have a sparkle I could not see individual crystals/particles of the iron oxide on the wood.
Now a ground iron oxide as used in paints has a particle size down around a few thousands of an inch.  These give a muddy appearance when viewed as a stain.  So I figured that the particle size of the iron oxide produced in a good nitrate of iron stain job must be down near micron size.

The optical properties of the individual crystals can vary depending on how you precipitate the iron oxide out of the ferric nitrate solution.  It is the light reflecting properties that give the wood's surfaces a sparkle and depth.

This thing about how small the crystals of iron oxide can be made comes into play with magnetic media used in video and audio tapes.  How magnetic media is made evolved out of later versions of the nitrate of iron.

E. Ogre

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Lurch, I would never polish a longrifle that high, unless it's a modern gun. It just isn't 'right' on a kentucky or a jaeger, in my opinion. The sheen we see on originals today is due to a glossy varnish over the polish from a well worn surface. Most all of the existing originals have been refinished at one time or another, where the original surface has worn off, leaving very few traces of 'as made' surface.

I tried to replicate what I would see in a slightly worn gun. You still see some tool marks in the backgrounding, and some raised grain still shows in the finish. In a brand new gun, you would likely see more scrape marks, more evidence of toolmarks on the surface, but all glossed over by varnish or boiled linseed finish.

Again, this is my opinion, because I am not old enough to know better.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

BILL OKLAHOMA CITY

  • Guest
MONK,
 Is there a method to achieve maximum optical properties of the crystals when precipitating the iron oxide?

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Sugar maple.  Colored with AF.  Grain filled with Button Lac. Oil varnish on top.

There is no "pigment" crammed into the grain.  No blackened curl, no end grain filled with mud.  The wood is clear and bright, looking at it from all directions.




www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks/1760
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
MONK,
 Is there a method to achieve maximum optical properties of the crystals when precipitating the iron oxide?


When I worked with the nitrate of iron I played with a wash of baking soda after staining and then heating.
The baking soda wash causes foaming on the surface which lifts off some of the iron oxide created by the reaction between the baking soda (a caustic) and the ferric nitrate (a weak acid) on the wood.  That gives very tiny crystals.
Doing the conversion from ferric nitrate to ferric oxide by just applying heat gives larger crystals but not a muddy look.

This thing about "chatoyancy" also relates to the structure of the wood.  When you look at well scraped oak and then well scraped maple under a microscope you see a difference in the structure of the wood and the way each reflects light.  Some woods like maple or alder takes on what might be called a "sheen" in the way it reflects light.  Oak has a very coarse structure and does not reflect light as well.
In trying to understand why different woods looked different when stained I used a high-power microscope to look into the micro-structure of the wood.  Some very large differences were seen.

Under the microscope the structure of the wood looks like a bunch of soda straws glued together.  There are big differences in the structure of the tubes.  The tubes in oak have double thickness double layer walls.  Those in maple are thin walled and single layer.


E. Ogre

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Stophel,

In regards to "no blackened curl".

That may happen with time. 

With my schimmel it took about 5 years for the curl to begin to turn black.  I bought a "second" blank at Dixons.  No curl could be seen in the raw blank.  On the patchbox side there was a dark discoloration where a patchbox would be located.  This side was very close to the sap wood.  The wood had a fair amount of tannic acid in it.

Tannic acid is highly soluble in water.  As moisture transported through the finish it would carry traces of tannic acid back out of the food where it would be deposited under the finish and turn the iron on the wood's surface black.  It took about 10 years for the full effect to be seen.  In 20 years the overall appearance of the stain changed dramatically from rather light to very dark.
Some blanks don't have as much tannic acid so the change would not be in the extreme seen in my stock.  But don't be surprised that with time you see the appearance change.


E. Ogre

northmn

  • Guest
Where did the use of acid stains come in?  As I understand it the originals were stained with a pigment stain and then shellacked or varnished.  I would be very willing to bet that they were not finished down to the same level as 0000 steel wool.  Acid has to be used on maple if finished down to that level as some pigments will not absorb on that slick of wood.  Some time ago I quit at 220 grit.

DP