Replacement Barrel Help

[Brent]

Hello all,

I have a situation with a botched rifle barrel and after looking at this site and forum I believe the members here can help me.

My dad began building a flintlock rifle thirty years ago and never finished it before he died.  He had positioned the barrel pins too high up the sides of the forestock so resorted to cutting slots in the barrel instead of using tenons to take the pins.  I was quite surprised he did this since he normally was very methodical and meticulous when working on guns but I guess even a dad can make a mistake.  At any rate I believe he eventually realized that the barrel was too iffy to shoot and stopped building the rifle after becoming disheartened over the matter.

I want to finish the rifle for him.  The easiest course would be for me to slap it together but I want to make this rifle a shooter.  I also don't want to have his mistake apparent to future generations.  He deserves better than that.

The obvious solution is to get another barrel, and this is where things get tricky.  The barrel is a .45 Douglas 15/16 straight and 44 inches long.  It's heavy, frightfully heavy, and I can't find any straight barrel longer than 42 inches.  I suppose I could get a custom job, but I think for the expense a 42 GM would be more practical even though this would mean repositioning the nose cap and thimbles.

As for the barrel weight, I could bump the caliber up to .50 or even .54 but I'm thinking that if I could use a 7/8 or even 13/16 barrel then that would solve the weight issue and allow the caliber to be kept at the preferred .45. 

So..... is this feasible?  Has anyone done anything like this before?

Would a swamped barrel work, assuming the forestock sides ran straight at the barrel taper?

The lock is a small Siler and the bolster is barely adequate for 15/16.  If a thinner barrel is used then does anyone have a suggestion for a lock with a thicker bolster?  With the Siler at 7/8 height I'm thinking a 15/16 lock would work better in case it needed to be shifted around - there is enough wood to do this.

There are several more areas on the rifle that need to be addressed but the barrel is the big one and the main stumbling block at the moment.  I'd say my dad did pretty well on the rest of the rifle considering we didn't have the resources like today.  Thanks for reading this post.

Brent

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Welcome Brent!!

First question: How deep are the slots in the barrel?  How much metal is left between the slots and the bore??

[Acer Saccharum]

Welcome Brent!

There are so many options, my head is swimming.

Let's start with the barrel. If you get a swamped barrel, the barrel channel will be too wide in the waist of the barrel, so there will be great gaps alongside the barrel, or if you get a swamped to fill the inlet at waist, the breech and muzzle sections will be so wide that you will have at least two problems, one at each end of the barrel

Once you start changing the barrel to a swamped, breech width will change, messing up the lock alignment. The lock inlet will now be too DEEP, which further compounds your problems. the barrel muzzle will be wider, and the current forestock may not have enough wood to fit the barrel into.

If the current barrel is still usable, I'd stay with that. As long as the slots aren't too close to the bore, it should be fine.

Regards, Tom

[Captchee]

  I would agree with the other fellas here .
  It would be a lot easier to  recommend what to do , if we could see the piece .
  The farther along it is in the build  the more  changing something can cause other things to alos need change or modified .

 While you don’t see the barrels being drilled like that anymore . I can remember a time when   some folks did that .
 Not to mention a couple of the  now long gone production companies also did it .
 So im thinking that  you father may have seen one of those and  since  good information was  scarce  he probably  went the same route ..
 Like  others have said . It all depends on  how  much wall thickness he left . Remember regardless of how you attach an under lug . If its not soldered on . Your taking material away from the  barrel .
 Be it drilling for staples or dove tailing  for an underlug

  You will have to stay with the 15/16 barrel . If you want to lighten it up  you need to go to a bigger bore if your going to replace the barrel .
 44 inchs isn’t all that hard to find .
 Im  sure Barbie chambers could line you up  one   from Getz or Rice
 Or call Ed Rayl  he can do a 44 inch barrel for you .
 If your set though on a GM barrel , give them a call .  Even though they don’t list them  anymore  you still may get them to do a 44 inch barrel

[Birddog6]

Brent.......  Email me.   I have a barrel that will replace what you have.

Birddogsix@yahoo.com

Keith Lisle

[t.caster]

Sounds familiar as to barrel weight to my first blank built flinter. I used a .45 x 7/8" x 44" Douglass. Way too heavy, even for this former weightlifter & HS & college shotputter! First I shortened it 2"...then 2" more. It still didn't balance well, so I eventually swapped in a GM .50 x 7/8" x 40" long. Not bad after that, but in all honesty, I probably built the Lehigh/Rupp style with too much drop for me.
What you have, sounds like a good combo for an over the log rifle.
I don't know how much inletting is done on the lock, but I might consider setting a large Siler in it's place...if it's not too far along already.

[Brent]

Thanks everybody for your help.

DrTim, I'm measuring .122 - .125 remaining thickness.  There are four cutouts with the first one seven and a half inches from the breech.

Acer, the swamped barrel is a no-go then.  I couldn't tell from various pictures if the stock followed the barrel contour or stayed straight and was hoping the stock ran straight.

Captchee, I'm positive that what happened was that my dad inletted the pin inlays high to clear the ramrod channel molding.  Looks like he worked on it out of proper build sequence.  Oops.

T.caster, I think there is enough wood around the lock panel to accept a 15/16 wide lock but it looks like a full inch wide one would be pushing the limits here, that's why I'd rather stay with 15/16 max else I'd be all over a large Siler.  I have my own stock and parts to build a rifle but need a lock so if whatever I get doesn't work then I'll just use it for myself.

So there looks to be about an eight of an inch max wall thickness.  After using the very sophisticated measuring instrument - the ramrod - the breechplug measures right around a half inch engagement so no problem there.  The liner, however, is set way back into the plug and I don't have a clue how the plug has been cut away but I assume it was done OK.

I was hoping that a thinner barrel with the barrel channel built up maple strips would be the way to go but it looks like I'll have to stay with the 15/16 barrel and so will work with that.

I'll get pics posted as soon as I figure out how.......

Brent

[FG1]

Pm sent .

[Brent]

Pics

[Birddog6]

Before I would consider using that barrel, I would pull the breechplug & see how the bore is centered at the breech. Douglas barrel are notorious for being off-center at the breech. If this happens to be so & the slots are on the thin side, you have even less meat above that slot.

If I figured correctly, you have roughly .105" and that is not allot of meat to have there at 7" from the bore.  You will have allot of pressure for a good 12" out.  Some people think because they are a small caliber there is not any pressure.  They are only fooling themselves.......... there is still allot of pressure there......  Also he cut a wide rectangular slot rather than drilling a hole, and that weakens the barrel even more.

Also you have another issue that may not have come to light.  I see he has escutcheon plates in & pins thru them & thru the barrel.  If you use another identical barrel, the pins are going to hit the barrel rather than go under the barrel, as the plates & pin holes are too high.

So, this opens up a whole dif can of worms..........

Keith Lisle

[J.D.]

If it was me, and I HAD to save the stock, I would replace the barrel with a  38-40" barrel, and use the cut off section of wood to repair the inlets for the escutcheons.

If you choose to go this route, I DO highly suggest that you buy the little book "Lock Stock and Barrel", by RH McCrory  and learn how to properly install those patches. Learning to that type of patch work takes practice, so it's a good idea to practice on scrap wood laying round the farmstead.

I once watched Keith Neubraur do that type of repair with such precision that it was nearly invisible when finished. However, Keith was an expert with years of practice, so yes, a near invisible patch can be made, but it will take lots of inletting practice to make it work.

God bless

[Larry Luck]

Brent,

Is the breechplug tang straight or flared?  If it is straight, this might work for pin placement.

There are some longrifles that were built with the pin slot in the barrel lug open all the way to the back so they were hooks rather than closed loops.  With a straight breechplug tang, the barrel was slid forward to clear the hooks and then lifted up and out of the channel.  This necessitates that the inlet for the lug extend forward somewhat in the barrel channel, but it cannot be seen with the barrel and ramrod in place.

If you used this approach you could remove the escutcheons and redrill the pin holes lower, insert pins, and replace the escutcheons.  You might want to let any future owner know this detail, unless you have a wicked sense of humor.

Just a thought.

Good luck with your project.  Fixing mistakes is one of the inevitable challenges to this work.

Larry Luck

[ol vern]

How about finding a certified welder and having the slots tig welded closed?

[t.caster]

Brent, I see it is quite aways along for a larger lock. You could make & inlet new escushions for the pins and put the holes lower, but it wouldn't look too great that way.
I would definitely pull the breach plug and see how it was cut out for the touchole clearance. Please post a pic of it!
Another thing about Douglass barrels besides being drilled offcenter most the time, is the rifling at the muzzle is often double rifled due to misalignment of the rifling cutter as it entered the barrel. You have to look close & use a light. That is one of the reasons most guys back then cut off the first 2" of their Douglass barrels to get rid of the bad rifling. I've never seen this on any other manufacturers barrel.

[Ky-Flinter]

Brent,

Welcome to ALR.  Just thinking out loud here.... What about proof firing the barrel?  Do a search here for "Barrel proofing" and read up on it.  Several gunbuilders proof each barrel they use.  If the barrel proofs ok, then build the rifle as your Dad intended.  As stated before it will make a great over-the-log gun.  Or look great hanging on the wall.  Then build yourself a lighter offhand rifle.  Good luck.

-Ron

[Birddog6]

How about finding a certified welder and having the slots tig welded closed?

No Way I would let anyone weld it..........   certified or not.........   That is a recipe for disaster.........

I would permanently plug the bore & hang it on the wall or replace the barrel.

Keith Lisle

[bgf]

I think I would put it together and plug the barrel also.  Finish it up pretty and let it be a decoration on the wall, along with a nice horn and pouch, maybe.  Your father gave it up for a reason, I don't think he would want you to get hurt with it. 

[Brent]

The easiest solution is to turn this rifle into a wall hanger but I'd really want to make it a shooter so I'd like to keep the wall decoration option as a last resort.

The breechplug is in tight and I'd say the liner needs to be removed first but this is moot because I think I'm going to have to replace the barrel.  The impression I get is that the barrel is iffy at best for shooting.  To compound matters I'm thinking of giving this rifle away as a gift (depending on if a certain family member actually graduates from college, but that's another story) and am extremely hesitant to allow another to shoot with this barrel even with warnings plastered all over it.

The pin inlays are not that big of a problem.  I figured I would plug the pin holes with rivets and leave them as decorations.  New pin holes can be drilled lower and left as holes so there wouldn't be a mass of inlays along the stock sides.  Besides, I kind of like the large one nearest the lock.

Nobody seems keen on building up the barrel channel and going with a smaller barrel. Along with less weight, by building up the channel sides I'd have enough thickness to sand down the outsides to the point where the inlays would be removed.  The stock sides are 3/32 in thickness so I figure even with the inlays removed there would still be enough wood present to maintain the current appearance.  It would be sort of like a veneer over whatever is used to build up the channel.  Isn't anybody curious on how this would work out?

Whatever the final decision is the stock is going to need some repair.  The lock mortise is broken through into the barrel channel and the web between the bottom flat and ramrod hole has been routed out from the breech forward about eight inches.  This last was not done by my dad but was the way the stock was shaped and is actually an advantage.  The forward lock screw is just low enough to put a mark on the ramrod.  I can replace the missing wood and at the same time ramp it so it will push the ramrod down and clear the lock screw.  There are also gaps around the breechplug tang, probably due to shrinkage, that need to be filled up.  On a side note, instead of kiln drying or air drying your stock for years, just take it to South Dakota.  Thirty minutes in the state and your stock is going to be as dry as it will ever get.

The breechplug itself is another problem area.  It's flared, and is 2 1/2 inches long.  I haven't found another one that long and don't know if I can salvage the current plug.  Worse comes to worse I can always cut the tang off and have it welded to another plug.

The lock molding looks complete but it is extremely shallow so it wouldn't take much to reshape it to accept a longer lock.  I am mainly considering a bigger lock to balance out the size of the barrel but this isn't critical.

Birddog6 has a line on an identical replacement barrel.  This would involve the least amount of rebuilding but the most weight.  I'm not sure if I want to risk the barrel collapsing onto itself and turning into a black hole though.

Please keep the suggestions coming.

What's annoying about this whole situation is that I have a Douglas barrel, .45 and 44 inches long, complete with runout.  And it's 13/16.  Also have a long tang breechplug, straight and for 13/16.  So, so close........

Just to make a long post even longer, are Douglas barrels so sacred that they should be left as is or is it no big deal to cut one down?  The rifling on mine looks good but the stock I have is for a 42 inch barrel, naturally.

[Birddog6]

You can change the tang.  In fact, I will look & see if I have a longer one, as I usually end up cutting them off. I may have one that long. Also have wire welded up MANY of them to make them longer or reshape them.  All the tang does is hold that end of the barrel down, it has no recoil properties of concern.

As for the barrel being into the RR hole, not pretty but don't hurt a thing as long as the RR goes in. Same on the front bolt & same on the lock .  You can turn that front bolt in the middle a tad to get some clearance.  If the Rr clears it all , it will work. If not you have some adjustments to do in some places.

Cutting them off, I cut them & don't bother me a bit. IMHO nothing sacred about Douglas, it is just a good barrel from the old days. Not a bit better than a Grn. Mtn, Rice or Getz to me, just a good barrel from days gone by...........  In their day a Douglas was a top of the line barrel......  

Keith Lisle