Author Topic: The trouble with copies  (Read 28340 times)

Offline Pete G.

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The trouble with copies
« on: September 04, 2010, 02:24:36 AM »
I was perusing the Mark Silver article about a documentary rifle in American Traditions for about the fifth or sixth time last night. Now keep in mind that my first exposure to building was in "Recreating the American Longrifle” and Mr. Buchele makes no secret of his disdain of what he calls a Chinese copy. With my personal twig being bent, I too have not been overly fond of copies. Now we have this article dealing with just that subject. There are four rifles that are compared side by side with the original. Perhaps that is where it falls apart for me.  All of these guns are fantastic guns in their own right, but there are problems with each.
The Germanic Fowler is a fabulous piece, but the lock plate is a different shape, the cock is completely different, the frizzen is much larger and the feather spring is different. The carving, while very similar, is also dissimilar. A stunning piece, but as a documentary copy, a failure.
Next piece up is the Mansker rifle. A really good rendition, except the angle of the trigger is totally wrong, which is a major styling error in my book. There is also a pet peeve of mine in that a lot of builders of contemporary rifles take great pains to align the screw slots, whereas most original smiths did not. Could our copies at least do a little bit of work to align the slots as per the original? A minor point perhaps, but if you are trying to replicate an original a little bit of extra care is required.
The next piece is the Allen rifle from Georgia. Ironically the text of the story on that very page points out that you cannot lengthen the length of a stock and just plop the features on to the resultant stock without distorting the features, but the adjacent photos show a rifle that has done just that. The patchbox, and particularly the side plates are stretched to fit the lengthened stock and lose the original proportion. Then there is that troublesome lock and screw slots again. The lock is a totally different style than the original. Again a beautiful rifle inspired by the original, but as a documentary copy, a failure.
Next up, the Reading rifle. Buttplate and trigger guard are close, but noticeably different, and again, those darn screw slots.
Next up, the rendition of the Crockett rifle. Lock is close, but again there are easily rectified differences, and again the triggers and those darn screw slots.
Finally, the "Free Born" rifle. Only the patchbox is shown, and again close, but the domed area is too narrow and while the engraving on the original is not very sophisticated the copy is even less so. Perhaps the flavor of the original, but a failure as a documented copy.
Again, all of these pieces are well done and are excellently executed, but as documented copies, they all fall short. I would much rather see an original creation, perhaps inspired by an old rifle, but not a copy. A copy that falls a little bit short is sort of in the same category as some of those 1960’s Italian replicas that were sort of like historical arms and give the flavor of the experience of firing them, but they are still not the same.

Your thoughts ?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 05:26:47 AM by Pete G »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 02:55:48 AM »
Boy -o- boy I think you might have opened up a can of worms, but I think you probably knew that. I think you have some very good points to consider and no dought there will be some interesting discusion on this. In a way I will ride the fence for awhile as I have some of the same opinions and some that differ. While the rifles mentioned do have some of what you call short comings they still,as you point out, are great. Greater than I can make thus I like them regardless of their minor short comings.   Thanks for starting what could be a very good post.     Gary

shooter93

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »
Obviously I don't post much but I do read here a lot. I do fully understand pete's thoughts though. For me...while I have no qualms with reproductions as close to original as possible I personelly have no desire to own one or build one. I much prefer the "flintlocks built for today's shooters" if that makes sense to you. I build truly custom homes, cabinets and furniture for a living. I have done many restorations on historical homes and furniture but they are just that....restorations or reproductions. What I enjoy putting my name on most are the hings I design for todays lifestyles but also carry a "certain traditional flavor"....again if that makes sense. I have a fair number of custom firearms, I'm just starting to expand the muzzleloader end of the collection, and all of them have the look of traditional custom guns but the stock lines, detailing etc is markedly made for me and for todays materials etc.  Just my opinion and I do admire the high quality reproductions but I prefer more of a "bespoke" gun.
Scott

Offline bgf

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 03:31:57 AM »
My twig wasn't particularly bent, but I agree with you that the documentary copies took what seemed like unnecessary liberties with originals.  One thing that did bother me was that it seemed to me in one or more cases that the copies had more faux patina than the originals had real patina, which just seemed gratuitous to me, i.e., why not make them "as built" as closely as possible, allowing us to see details that may be hard to make out on the originals.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 04:01:26 AM »
One thing is apparent in your whole conversation, you have never done a "bench copy" of anything.  I suppose you would turn one of these copies down because the screw slots were not in the same position as the original.  I know
many of these super builders and none of them try to take a gun to the degree of what you call a "true copy"......they're
not really trying to do that...........Don

Offline Pete G.

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 04:12:42 AM »
l.  I know many of these super builders and none of them try to take a gun to the degree of what you call a "true copy"......they're
not really trying to do that...........Don

Then what's the point ?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 04:35:29 AM »
Pete,

Let me get this straight.  If a rifle patterned after an original closely replicates it, but not all details are the same (including screw slot index) there is "no point" in a building approach such as this.   In other words an approach such as this has no merit.  Is this your stance?

Jim

Offline Pete G.

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 04:55:36 AM »
Pete,

Let me get this straight.  If a rifle patterned after an original closely replicates it, but not all details are the same (including screw slot index) there is "no point" in a building approach such as this.   In other words an approach such as this has no merit.  Is this your stance?

Jim
No, that is not my stance. I think that if you are going to replicate an artifact it should be accurate.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 05:02:30 AM by Pete G »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 05:17:52 AM »
I like guns that look like they might have come off of an original builder's bench. Not an exact copy of any known gun, but with a lot of the original builder's look and feel..I guess that is a 'Bespoke" gun.

I am also very impressed by a real copy of an original...I think I have only seen one..and I can't rmember where but I was flat impressed.

So what is a "Bespoke" gun? What is a "Documentary Copy" and what is a "Bench Copy"?

Both of these expressions are fine with me. I guess an intended "Bench Copy" will be judged by how well it matches the original in all aspects, while the "Bespoke" Gun will just need to fit the style so to speak.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 06:27:30 AM »
Pete,

Let me get this straight.  If a rifle patterned after an original closely replicates it, but not all details are the same (including screw slot index) there is "no point" in a building approach such as this.   In other words an approach such as this has no merit.  Is this your stance?

Jim
No, that is not my stance. I think that if you are going to replicate an artifact it should be accurate.

It's never going to be possible to perfectly replicate an existing rifle.    With this said, given enough ability, time and effort, a pretty good approximation can be created.  Even so, there will be no doubt subtle differences that some may choose to find fault with.  Personally I think it's best to appreciate a rifle for what it is and ignore titles, names and value judgements.  Take this route and you're problem is solved.

Offline skillman

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 06:49:58 AM »
In my opinion after two hundred years it is impossible to tell where the screws were originally indexed.
Steve



Steve Skillman

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 07:09:01 AM »
Pete, you forget to talk about the figure in the wood.

Offline whitebear

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 08:07:31 AM »
I understand your thoughts but it would be litterally impossible to make an exact coppy of an original.  Even the old time makers did not reproduce everything exactly from one rifle to another.  If that's what you want best get a TC or LPR.
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »
A great subject.  A bench copy is by definition, a gun made with the original in hand. It is NOT an exact copy but rather something that captures the original exactly. IF the builder is successful. When I do this I change little things on purpose, the same as the builder from gun to gun. The guns referred to are these. And they are successfull. It is a matter of art, not mathamatical precision.

A documentary copy is a gun made with the original in hand where the object is to duplicate it as close as humanly possible. A daunting task. BUT IT IS NOT A PHOTOGRAPHIC COPY. Dents and screw slot alligment are completely irrelevant. It too is a matter of art.  Jim Kibler is working on a documentary copy of the Valentine Beck rifle ( Shumway #42) with the original in hand. on seeing the progress, I have no doubt this will be a stunning success.


Look at the Jacob Young rifles in recent posts on this board, None are the same , yet all are easily identifiable without a signature. Someone could look at a picture of any of these rifles and make his best effort, and completely miss it, even though it might basically look like the picture. This is a Chinese copy.

Originals are not always needed for a good interpretation. I've seen and handled so many Dickerts, Becks and  Fordneys , that I can make a good interpretation without the original. David Dodds doesn't have to see every Reading rifle to do it justice.  But I can't just see a picture of anything  and make a credible copy. It too might be a Chinese copy no matter how hard I try. You have to know your subject, and then it's a matter of art. There's little mechanical in it.



Offline Lucky R A

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 01:30:40 PM »
    As Don said you apparently have never attempted a documentary copy of an original.   It is a daunting task.  First off you never completely match the grain pattern and structure of the original...after there was only one original tree.   Each and every piece has to be handmade or filed and modified to conform to the originals.   Carving with a different tool and possible a slightly different technique---perhaps the original craftman was left handed or you were will produce a different result.   Engraving is the same deal, even how you clamp the rifle and the position you attack a pattern from can produce slightly different results.  Where a volute starts and ends or how lines are joined are considerations.   The task of producing a copy up to your standards is impossible.  I did a documentary copy of a Frederick Sell rifle, as I worked on it I found a no ticable gap in the inletting at the head of the patchbox---do you copy the obvious good of 200 years ago or do you fix it?   I fixed it, so in that event my copy was a failure and should be relegated to a pile of Chinese junk.   Your standards are really unreasonable and unattainable.   I once did a nice Beyer rifle for a client who was O/C.   He checked the rifle out during construction and noticed that the sideplates of the patchbox were of a slightly different assay than the head and lid of the box.  After the antiquing was compleated the very slight more reddish cast of the sideplates completely disappeared.   He returned the rifle after a month, because that bothered him...   I took it back and resold it for more than he initially paid.   I say this to say there are some people who will never be satisfied.   Making a good documentary copy is one of the greatest learning experiences a rifle builder can have.   
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 04:31:01 PM »
... and thus is why the "non-refundable" deposit came into being.  ::)
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 04:58:13 PM »
Don is absolutely correct; I have never done a documentary copy, and probably never will because of the difficulty and the extreme skill required to pull it off. I guess I am perplexed as to how someone could spend the hundreds of hours to study and build something that is close to an original and then put a different lock on the thing for instance.

I do find it interesting that of all the critiques the one most seemed to notice was screw slots. My point on that is that the screws are a major visual element in a patchbox design and it takes maybe 15 minutes to align them however a builder would want, and yet that detail is often overlooked. Seems to be no different than using a different size screw for instance.

I like do Bill's comment "It is NOT an exact copy but rather something that captures the original exactly". Still trying to wrap my mind around that one. The closest I can get so far is maybe we are talking about a rifle that could have come out of a certain shop but not necessarily #40 that came out of that shop. If that is the case, then we are now talking interpretation and not copy, which I believe is the next article due to be released.

Stay tuned folks, it should really get interesting when they get around to fantasy rifles.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 05:52:34 PM »
This is a great subject. It can be debated until the cows come home, but in the end, we will be right back where we started.  ;D

Coming in late, as usual, much has been covered, and covered well.

I have a 'copy' I just finished, and it is not an identical copy, but an 'in the spirit of' copy. it's what a gun might have looked like from the same shop, the same man. I think I would have a hard time making something 'exact', since I would feel my creativity is being put on the shelf. I am copying someone else's creativity. There is nothing wrong with this, it just doesn't suit my pleasure.

Copying, however, is THE best way to learn a style, be it a Rembrandt or a Picasso, or a Beck. You must study what exists on the object, and learn how to reproduce it faithfully. You must learn to put your own self taught methods aside, and endeavor to replicate the object at hand. This is MUCH harder than making something 'in the spirit of'. You also have to have the object in the flesh. You cannot do this kind of work from photographs.

Tom
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2010, 05:57:05 PM »
Stay tuned folks, it should really get interesting when they get around to fantasy rifles.
It may benefit us more to explore this topic to its fullest before launching in a different direction.
Tom
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2010, 05:58:40 PM »
In my opinion after two hundred years it is impossible to tell where the screws were originally indexed.
Steve




;D
Quote
I do find it interesting that of all the critiques the one most seemed to notice was screw slots. My point on that is that the screws are a major visual element in a patchbox design and it takes maybe 15 minutes to align them however a builder would want, and yet that detail is often overlooked. Seems to be no different than using a different size screw for instance.
I have to disagree here. The only time I even notice the screws is if they are all lined up....very distracting and annoying.

Now to the subject at hand.....I don't think I'm talented enough  to make a "duplicate" or "bench copy". My hat is off to those that can. Honestly I'd have difficulty getting through the project. I think I'd really feel limited artistically, and for me that's pretty much what building is all about these days. I personally like to see some of the contemporary builder in a gun, not an exactish remake of an old gun that shows nothing of the contemporary builder other than his technical skills.
 But then folks like Bill Shipman and others can pull this kind of stuff off quite nicely. I do enjoy a bench copy from those guys, but tend to enjoy their own creative work much more.  I enjoy guns "in the school of" or "in the style of" more than an "exact copy" of any particular gun.  Just a matter of personal taste I suppose.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 06:15:21 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline b bogart

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2010, 06:47:45 PM »
I'm unqualified to give an opinion here about "copies" etc, but as a guy that makes a living with his hands I  can assure you that even the original gunsmith could not make an exact copy of his original work! Nothing is ever the same!! I am amazed that present day craftsmen can get as close as they do! I am not even a fan of copies! I like to see the elements from the original used but doubt that an exact copy could ever be made!! The old timers would not do a copy (and probably couldn't get it exact) but thier work would be unmistakenly be similar!

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »
Is an exact bench copy, one that is right in every detail, a fake? It would seem so. Screw alignment, dings, cracks, wear patterns, signature......

Just playing the devil's advocate, but there are many issues around this 'copy  business' that do not appeal to me.

I am a creative builder, like Mike Brooks, well, not just like Mike Brooks, because I only like to cook the chickens. I would be stifled and enraged at having no freedom of expression. I like to have my way with the architectural and decorative elements of the gun. So that is NOT copying, and therefore, I am OFF topic.

Tom
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Offline Captchee

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2010, 07:44:52 PM »
 Im with Mike and Don on this subject .
 I think making an exact bench copy  would be near impossible to do . I sure wouldn’t want to try it  and my hat is off to those that do  attempt it .
 Myself I would never attempt such a thing . Simply because I could never do it .
 If  I don’t like something , I have a  great urge to want to change it . I don’t think I could or will ever get over that . At least in 30 years I haven’t and frankly see no reason to change  now .
 I also wonder what the opinion would be about fit of parts .
 Through the years I have handled many original pieces . For the most part  all   but a few, all  had seen hard use .
Some years back , I was   given the chance to  inspect an early Manton SXS  that’s in the Cody museum . To say I was thrilled would be an  understatement.
 That piece  was very well cared for .   While the quality of workmanship was high .  I wouldn’t call it beyond  what many   of today’s newer builders or smiths are turning out

 I also wonder  if many times folks simply get confused , do to how someone describes a given piece .
 If these were  intended to indeed be copies of original pieces  then why would there  by large patent issues like having the wrong lock or cock ????
 I could see  them possibly having smaller  issues like  not quite proper pan shapes   or slight differences in the carvings . But  past that ?
 So im wondering if the case isn’t  more to the point  the piece the author is critiquing, 
 were  possibly never intended to be  what they are trying to be made out as .


 Something I learned long , long ago in the Trades  .
 Never  criticize or pick apart someone else work   unless they themselves ask you to .
 Without them standing there , its very easy to say  how you would do something differently . But you never will know the situation of why something was done the way it was  without them  justifying it
Doing so  in their absence , is a very good way  down the road  at a later date , to get a punch in the nose

Offline Captchee

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2010, 07:55:33 PM »
Is an exact bench copy, one that is right in every detail, a fake? It would seem so. Screw alignment, dings, cracks, wear patterns, signature......

Just playing the devil's advocate, but there are many issues around this 'copy  business' that do not appeal to me.

Tom

 Very true .
 Not to long ago   I was reading  on one of the engraving forums , a discussion  that was started by a very highly sought after engraver .
 He was just livid .
 He had came a cross a  gun that was factory produced  using one of his designs .
 While the design wasn’t 100% , it was very close .
 The person that had posted a photo of it as some of his work also happened to be on the form .
As it turned out . He didn’t know  that the original design  was phils .
 As he was  working for the factory who requested  it , he did what was ask . Thinking nothing of it .

 While  I understand  those that made what are being copied are long since  gone .
  but still ???? doesnt there have to be a point where  something has to  signify that its someone elses  work  thus not making it an exsact copy

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Re: The trouble with copies
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2010, 08:17:53 PM »
A documentqry copy is obviously the one that has the most stringenet requirements of copying.  I can understand not using at least the same lock plate for instance as bding a valid crtisism.  As to faux patina, I think that that might be an extreme.  When the gun was made new it had no patina as talked about, but looked new.  Wouldn't a copy be better if it was what the gun looked like new ???  Not mine to answer, but I absolutely would not want to try to make an exact copy of even a poor boy, least to say an adorned longrifle.  The parts would likely have to be all scratch made as thing like even the swamped barrels available are not exact copies of many on originals.  Locks were mentioned. Someone will come along with a micrometer and tell you where you screwed up anyway.  Close as reasonably possible has to be good enough.

DP