Author Topic: dimpled round balls  (Read 15673 times)

john

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dimpled round balls
« on: September 09, 2010, 06:36:10 PM »
Anyone on this board try to dimple a round lead ball to see if it flies farther?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 06:57:58 PM »
Go to page 28 (this morning), read July 24, 2009 topic on sanding round balls.

northmn

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 09:22:31 PM »
Page 28 raised questions concerning diameter increases.  However, I looked up golf ball aerodynamics to see what the deal is.  Dimples on a golf ball do increase distance from the same hit.  It was explained that the turbulence behind a dimpled ball is such that you get kind of a push due to the disruption caused by turbulence.   Also a golf ball acts somewhat like a plane wing in that the turbulence cased by the dimples increases lift.  This is however dependent upon SPIN.  If a sphere is not spinning this may not work.  I went to 4 web sites concerning golf ball aerodynamics and got the same basic answers.  Friction is increased by dimples but drag decreased due to the nature of more turbulence behind the ball kind of pushing it.  A golf ball can be hit farther in the atmosphere than in a vacuum, due to these principles.  A "Happy Nonhooker" was developed and outlawed for competition as it helped to alleviate hooks and slices which was a ball that had dimples around an axis but not all around.  If you really want to get a golf ball effect make a hexagonal dimpling system as that is the latest rage.  Now about round ball from a smooth bore.  Do they spin ???  If not the golf ball effects do not work.  Higher velocities ???  Sometimes as in ballistic coefficients different things happen at different velocities.  I got very good results with my smooth rifle, which has sights, by loading the ball the with the parting line lined up with the sights and carefully selecting the ball.  Should I rough them between 80 grit sandpaper ???  As to those winning that do so, quite often you see flintlock shooters beat percussion shooter.  Not because flints may be more accurate, but because better shots tend to gravitate to flintlocks.  Maybe that was so with roughing the round ball.  since my smooth rifle has sights I may have to try it.  As my deflection was mostly vertical, maybe roughing the ball on one axis and making a "Happy Nonhooker".

DP

Offline hanshi

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 01:23:10 AM »
Golf ball type dimples do work to reduce turbulence.  The Bevel Brothers once did an article on dimpled vs smooth balls.  It was in a Muzzle Blasts issue a couple years ago, if I remember correctly.
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Offline Dan

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 03:32:42 AM »
I'm of mixed thoughts on the dimpling of round balls.  There was a lot of chatter about this recently on the subject of doing this to conicals, even a web site touting the idea. 100% bogus from the get go.

It may or may not be beneficial to round balls from a smooth bore, on that I'm undecided.  For rifles I think it a bunch of hooey.  The benefit perceived to golf balls relates to laminar flow which is very limited by form in the first place.  One of those better-one-way-or-the-other issues I'd imagine.  One is better off discarding laminar flow than having it mutate the flow field.  My guess anyway. 

Do keep in mind that golf balls are subsonic things and round balls from the average ML are not.  Different aerodynamic issues are involved in a lot of ways and sonic shock wave emanate from ALL protuberances in supersonic flight. Shock waves mean drag...

Offline Kermit

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 04:02:30 AM »
Okay. This goes WAY back. It's either "boundary layer air control" or "boundary air layer control." Has to do with reducing drag/friction. I used to build and fly hand launched gliders in competition. Sophisticated little buggers. We NEVER sanded the wing surfaces. Leaving them sorta fuzzy made for higher and longer flights. Sand 'em smooth and shorten your time aloft. I expect it's trajectory and range that you get with dimples. Shouldn't change muzzle velocity. But is it worth it? I've got personal doubts. :-\
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 05:16:07 AM »
Even more impressive with a Kirk Douglas chin.  The does love it! ;D
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 05:23:30 AM »
There is a considerable difference in velocity between round balls fired from a flintlock and golf balls or model airplaines.

Jet aircraft do not have dimpled surfaces for example.

Dan
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 03:28:29 PM »
Dan,

I don't think jets generally spin so the analogy doesn't work very well....

But, I agree that the velocity of a golf ball and a round ball are very differnent and could affect the outcome.
Robert Wolfe
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roundball

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »
Although jet aircraft do use BLC (Boundary Layer Control) whenever the leading edge slats are pitched forward for takeoffs and landings to gain extra lift  ;D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 05:00:47 PM by roundball »

lawhetzel

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 06:30:08 PM »
I am no expert on these things. In fact, I never really thought about them. :-\ However, IMHO, there should be no point of comparison. After all, the axis of spin in a PRB from a rifle is parallel to the line of flight, a PRB from a smoothbore has no spin  ???, and the spin on a golf ball should be a reverse spin perpendicular to the line of flight  ???.

Offline TPH

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 07:17:20 PM »
It is altogether a silly idea. Why waste the time?
T.P. Hern

Offline hanshi

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 09:02:42 PM »
It is altogether a silly idea. Why waste the time?

I agree.  Though the difference is real, why would anyone take all that time and effort to dimple perfectly good (as they already are) rifle/musket balls. 
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2010, 03:57:21 PM »
Dan,

I don't think jets generally spin so the analogy doesn't work very well....

But, I agree that the velocity of a golf ball and a round ball are very differnent and could affect the outcome.

Considering the shock waves involved etc its extremely unlikely roughening the ball surface is going to make a difference.
If it were possible to dimple or roughen a high velocity projectile someone would have found it by now.
The amount of research into VLD projectiles tells me its BS for projectiles fired from firearms.
By the time the projectile has reached golf ball velocity (148 mph is about max from what I have read) it has stuck the ground at least once.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2010, 04:17:48 PM »
Anyone on this board try to dimple a round lead ball to see if it flies farther?

see
http://www.phys.ncku.edu.tw/mirrors/physicsfaq/General/golf.html
According to this the dimples actually INCREASE drag but provide lift so long as there is sufficient back spin.
But there are several sites that explain this and there are differences in the explanations but basically back spin creates lift which, due to the Magnus effect, which causes bullet drift for the same reasons..
I don't believe that dimples eliminate drag and make the ball fly like it was in a vaccum as I think someone here stated. If they did the golf ball would not slow down at all.
Dan
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northmn

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2010, 06:56:15 PM »
The dimpling of roundballs does increase drag.  As I stated, I looked up the aeronautics of a golf ball in about 4 sites and all had the same explanation.  A driven golf ball going through the air is imparted a forward spin similar to a circle saw cutting through wood.  That spin MUST be present in order to create the laminar flow mentioned.  You Must have both the spin and the dimples for a golf ball to have increased flight.  The "Happy Nonhookers" eliminated slices and hooks because they were smooth and did not create a similar airflow to the side if the hit produced more of a Frisbee flight.  The dimples work as air pockets that move the air turbulence forward and also drop it behind the ball to give extended thrust and lift.  It is very similar to a airplane wing.  BUT all this requires the English or SPIN.  when they talked about testing golf balls in a wind tunnel, they had to go to special efforts to get the correct spin.  I am sorry, but the theory that round ball need dimples to improve their flight does not cut it as they do not have the correct spin or if they do it would not be consistant.  I have read more than one Half-a--ed theory in magazines that does not follow the science.  Dimpling a ball does in fact create drag and would slow them down quicker especially if it were rifled. If you look in Lymans research and see the the turbulence studies on rifled roundball you see a perfect ball diameter trail behind the ball. If roughing up a roundball gives more accuracy it would do so possibly because it would grab the patch better?  Maybe the hobbing action makes them more round as mold do not cat perfectly round ball?  Mine are about .002 out of round.  Creating more consistant imperfections may eliminate others?  Eliminating the sprue?  I personally think it is what psychologists call superstitious behavior.  Some top shot did so and others thinking that that's what it takes to win.  I remember a rifle builder that sold a lot of rifles.  I think a lot of them thought if they owned one of his rifles they could shoot as well as he did. The fact that he also ran through about 25 pounds of powder a year does not occur to them.  This is my favorite theory as I have had too good of results in my smooth rifle with as cast ball selected and consistently loaded.  this is with sights off a bench rest.

DP
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:14:58 PM by northmn »

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 05:23:12 PM »
I'd like to know what golfer is capable of launching a ball from tee in excess of 1125 fps?

Subsonic high-efficiency aircraft have been fitted with dimpled/ribbed panels since around the mid 1980's, in the early 1990's subsonic jets began being fitted with similar panels to reduce drag.  There's a huge difference between supersonic and subsonic flight.
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northmn

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 06:24:51 PM »
Rifling was possibly derived due to the discovery earlier that spiral fletched arrows flew more true than straight fletched.  As I shot a lot of wooden homemade arrows in 3D matches and hunted with them, I can attest to that, especially with broadheads.  I have seen pictures of bow makers and arrow makers that would build a "character" bow, or a bow that looks like a snake, and have an arrow that looks like a corkscrew and shoot them well.  An arrow will often shoot to point of aim as long as the is is lined up with the nock.  The center axis thing or the center of gravity being in a straight line.  A sphere is a unique projectile (claimed by those that explained the golf ball principle) and is why a golf ball does what it does.  A keyholing bullet does not have extended range.  Rifling does to bullets what the fletching on arrows did for them by spinning the projectile which equalizes the weight distribution to the center of axis, which if pointed at the target should make it fly to the target.
In theory, if I could cast a perfect set of roundball and shoot it out of a perfect smooth barrel at the same exact velocity they should group as well as ball shot out of a rifle. Perfection does not exist. My mold casts a ball that is out of round by .002-.003.  One may get hidden slag inclusions in the casting.  You have a sprue in a cast ball (many removal techniques I have read about merely spread the sprue over a larger area and increase the out of round, to properly remove one you need to grind it off), patching could possibly vary slightly such that one side is .014 and the other .016, the lube could be thicker on one side, etc.  These things contribute to making a smoothbore shoot less accurately as the ball may leave the muzzle at a slightly different angle and the axis is not exactly centered.  These are just examples, there are other factors. 
Dimpling on a golf ball makes it fly farther, I do not know how associated it is with accuracy ???  I like tn old supposed Native American saying.  "Any old stick makes a bow, takes a lot of work to make an arrow"

DP

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 09:06:59 PM »
You can't compare an arrow to a PRB either because one is a fin-stabbilized mass with additional tail drag, the other is proportional neutral in that the CG is equal to the CB (or at least close enough for the purposes of a ML projo.  For the same reason as why an atlatl dart can not only recover from the initial deformation and resultant spring flexing but continue on to produce consistent accuracy downrange - it's not so much the spin as it is the mass distribution and tail drag.  Spin helps but it's not everything, if you shoot an arrow backwards (heaviest mas at the rear, what will happen? 

A true sphere does not require spin-stability but that's not going to happen with lead.  Some test lab's run ball bearings, which are about as close to a perfect sphere as humans can get, through smoothbores with reliable pinpoint accuracy and at velocities in excess of 20,000 fps.  On the flip side, those same ball bearings could be launched at velocities at the bottom end of the subsonic range and still produce exceptional accuracy.
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northmn

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2010, 09:33:58 PM »
The stabiliation from fin stabilization is the same whether introduced by rifling or by feathers.  So yes you can compare.  The spinning action in effect moves the center of gravity to an axis that makes a projectile fly truer.  If you shoot an arrow backwards you do recieve the proper aerodyamics to design nor do the tapered feathers work.  Rifling was conceived from arrows and spiral fletching.  Straight fletched arrows were found not to stabilize broadheads and I can attest to that somewhat). The shuttle cock effect is attributed to rifled slugs that do not spin but have a weight forward effect.   Also a golf ball has to have spin to create the turbalence that gives it its rise.  Otherwise you have an increased surface area and more drag.  A dimpled surface may lessen friction but I bet that they are panels where the air moves by in a crosswise direction such that surface area is actually lessened.  My point about the arrow was that a crooked arrow with the point and the nock aligned  Tend to shoot true which is because the central axis retains its integrety.  A bent arrow with the point not aligned with the nock can go anywhere.  Rifling does not cure all ills, but it is amazing how bad a roundball can look and still shoot accurately.  Some wrinkled ball shoot about as well as good looking ones.  The lift gained from dimples on a golf ball do not necessarily mean it would be more accurate.  The issues of created air turbalence are also important in design.  But note that long range bullets are very streamlined and pointed.  Also note that at lower velocities nose design is also not as critical.  A roundball with its rather blunt design offers a lot of surface area to length as compared to a bullet.  The dimples at RB speeds may or may not cause it to slow down appreciably, but I suspect that they would.  Steel shot performed better than expected becasue it was surmised it had a slicker surface and slowed down less for their mass (more like they think the coasrser surface of lead made it slow down more than they thought.   Steel shot would likely not take on any consistant spin in a pattern if any spin.
However your point about perfect ball bearings is what I suspected.  A perfect round ball would show better accuracy.  A non-spinning projectile is more suseptible to minor imperfections.

DP

Offline Dphariss

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 04:50:08 AM »
You can't compare an arrow to a PRB either because one is a fin-stabbilized mass with additional tail drag, the other is proportional neutral in that the CG is equal to the CB (or at least close enough for the purposes of a ML projo.  For the same reason as why an atlatl dart can not only recover from the initial deformation and resultant spring flexing but continue on to produce consistent accuracy downrange - it's not so much the spin as it is the mass distribution and tail drag.  Spin helps but it's not everything, if you shoot an arrow backwards (heaviest mas at the rear, what will happen? 

A true sphere does not require spin-stability but that's not going to happen with lead.  Some test lab's run ball bearings, which are about as close to a perfect sphere as humans can get, through smoothbores with reliable pinpoint accuracy and at velocities in excess of 20,000 fps.  On the flip side, those same ball bearings could be launched at velocities at the bottom end of the subsonic range and still produce exceptional accuracy.

I would like to read about shooting the ball bearings is there is web site?

Dan
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 05:59:38 AM »
If I got dimpled RBs, they would go into the lead pot.
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 07:01:26 AM »
Dan P.,

I don't know if there are any websites, I never looked.  It's quite impressive.

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DP,

Quote
The stabiliation from fin stabilization is the same whether introduced by rifling or by feathers.

Not quite.  Fin-stabilized projo's need not rotate, depending on the design, the fins can stabilize the flight without any rotation at all.  It's imperative to not confuse stable flight with accuracy as associated with guns - a bullet can be perfectly stable in flight yet not be accurate - two completely separate topics.

Quote
If you shoot an arrow backwards you do recieve the proper aerodyamics to design nor do the tapered feathers work.

Sorry, I should have been more clear on that one ... "reverse the arrow" should have been the statement - put the fletching in the lead and the tip trailing and I guarantee it'll tumble because an arrow is just like a bottle rocket, remove the stick from the rocket and the engine will tumble and go erratic.  Reason being is that the fletching on the arrow, as the stick on the bottle rocket, provide the tail-drag that is necessary to maintain stable flight.  Using the fletching to impart rotation on the arrow increases accuracy, a strait-fletched arrow is fully capable of stable flight.

Again, a golf ball is in subsonic flight, any reasonable load under a PRB puts it well into the supersonic range and thus the PRB is a completely different critter.

Quote
A roundball with its rather blunt design offers a lot of surface area to length as compared to a bullet.

Theoretically, a sphere cannot tumble and even if it did, it's the same all the way around so it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't.  A PRB is NOT a sphere, although it is "somewhat" round, it's not a true sphere.  It's not impossible to get very good accuracy from a PRB without rifling-imparted spin such as from a smoothbore but the quality of the balls is directly proportional to the level of accuracy that can be obtained.

Quote
Steel shot performed better than expected becasue it was surmised it had a slicker surface and slowed down less for their mass (more like they think the coasrser surface of lead made it slow down more than they thought.   Steel shot would likely not take on any consistant spin in a pattern if any spin.

The problem with lead shot is the same as with a PRB, it's easily deformed whereas the ball bearing or steel shot pellets do not deform anywhere near as easily as lead.  Drag created by irregular shaped lead pellets will definitely increase drag which is why it is so imperative to provide sufficient cushioning for firing and to keep it from scrubbing against the bore - second part of keeping it off the bore is to keep it from picking up spin.  In comparable loads, well protected lead shot will maintain a higher velocity than steel pellets of the same size and at the same range - that's just a matter of momentum by mass.  One cannot compare buggered up lead pellets to un-buggered steel pellets, has to be apples to apples or it's pointless.   I've seen a lot of those BS stories written by gun rag prostitutes and 99.99% of them are just total BS.  Several compared a typical Winchester or Remington factory load with lead shot to a factory loaded steel shot cartridge.  The pattern density is BS because 1.25oz of steel contains more pellets than 1.25oz of lead shot of the same size - more pellets in the load, surely it's going to put more holes in the paper .... ooooooh, rocket science  ::)

Nonetheless, the lead shot loads used standard $#@* uni-wads, thin petals that don't run the full length of the shot column and a pretty much worthless cushion (except for the Federal wads that look like a coil spring, they actually provided fairly decent cushioning).  When you go to the steel shot cartridges, they're running a thick petal full length shot cup and the wad has sufficient strength and mass to stay with the shot longer, by about 5 yards on average and that's long enough to make a considerable difference in the pattern density.  When properly loaded with the right components, #2 lead pellets are capable of making a clean kill on a goose at 80 yards - the momentum of standard steel shot loads with BB size pellets is well into the low end of "iffy" at 80yds, one has to go up to T size steel to compare with #2 lead.  


Quote
A dimpled surface may lessen friction but I bet that they are panels where the air moves by in a crosswise direction such that surface area is actually lessened.

Actually, those I've seen were located on the leading edge and high-drag surfaces.  IIRC, it was either Volvo or Mercedes-Benz that began using dimpled panels on cars to reduce drag.  The Japanese have been doing it on boats for a long time.
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northmn

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 04:58:33 PM »
The emphasis on this thread is about roundball and not about arrows.  What I stated is so basic in the archery community I will not waste anymore time on that discussion.  In a cursory investigation on other websites, I found that the dimpled panels on aircraft, trucks and cars are being explored as side panels.  The drag of frontal area increases with the square of the velocity as on trucks and cars.  However when air flows obliquely over a surface drag can be recuced by dimples as they decrease the surface area impacted by the air flow.  Fairly straight forward mechanics.  Mythbusters actually showed an 11% increase in mileage in a test car, with a dimpled surface but the effect would be the flow over side panels. They also admitted that front panels hit at nearly 90 degrees would have an increased drag.
The only practical way to resolve this issue would be to compare patterns at longer range with a smoothbore to see if dimple ball shot higher as the golf ball effect increase lift.  I would do so, but do not feel it is worth my time as I get very good accuracy without rubbing the ball over sandpaper or a rasp.  I do not trust the accuracy of a smoothbore quite enough to place a chronograph down range and compare averages either.  this started when competitive shooters claimed greater accuracy with roughened ball.  I do not deny that there may be something there, but it is not due to the golf ball effect.

DP

DP
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:16:50 PM by northmn »

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: dimpled round balls
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 08:42:54 PM »
The emphasis on this thread is about roundball and not about arrows.  What I stated is so basic in the archery community I will not waste anymore time on that discussion.

The only practical way to resolve this issue would be to compare patterns at longer range with a smoothbore to see if dimple ball shot higher as the golf ball effect increase lift.  I would do so, but do not feel it is worth my time as I get very good accuracy without rubbing the ball over sandpaper or a rasp.  I do not trust the accuracy of a smoothbore quite enough to place a chronograph down range and compare averages either.  this started when competitive shooters claimed greater accuracy with roughened ball.  I do not deny that there may be something there, but it is not due to the golf ball effect.

DP


The problem is you're confusing accuracy with stability and they are completely different topics.  You're also trying to compare subsonic flight with supersonic flight which are also two completely different topics.  Just as the radial bands on a foster style shotgun slug do absolutely nothing while going through the air, dimples on a PRB running supersonic are not going to do anything other than add a little leading edge drag and be more susceptable to crosswinds.

You're the one who brought up arrows which are yet again another completely different topic because not only are they subsonic, they absolutely rely on tail drag just as a Foster or Brenekke slug from a smoothbore.  The tail drag is what provides stability, any spin applied provides accuracy - completely different topics which is why I've been trying to separate them. 

Mark
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