isaac haines or other lancaster rifle patterns?

[animus_divinus]

im trying to find some good patterns for the isaac haines preferably, or atleast similar style lancaster type pennsylvania rifles.. the ones on track of the wolf dont even have top view or cross section views... does anyone know where i can find there?.. and i would most definitely prefer a PDF version of the plans so that i may print them out on poster board.... any suggestions?

[Dave B]

There may be some body out there with what you are asking for but to my knowledge there is not.  I have a set of the Lancaster plans from track of the wolf  and thought they did have cross sectional views. I cant find them now....of course when I need them.  Well I did find my Jaeger plans from them  of a 1730- 1750 Germanic rifle. They have cross sectional views and a full color example of a rifle built by Terry McClain with top view and all. My other plans didn't have the additional color view of an actual rifle. The copy right is for 2009 so its a lot newer than my Lancaster plans from "97".

[animus_divinus]

thats the problem, the haines plans dont have much help for actually building one and in the description it even says theyre to convince people to build one from one of their kits... though the ones at muzzleloader builders supply have some lancaster plans with top views and such, theyre not all that in depth

also finding one in PDF form would help me immensely.. but i guess i could place markers every 10 inches or so and make individual scans of the rifle in sections (considering theyre full scale patterns), then convert the raster image to vectors, clean up in solid works and make printable, accurate templates from them...

but yeah, would really like to find better haines plans, or something very similar in appearance

[Don Getz]

Animus.......I think if you would question most of the builders on this forum, you would find that they build their guns mostly from pictures, then progress to lookiing at originals and guns built by other builders.   It's kind of a slow learning
curve.............Don

[Mike Brooks]

You will also find that nobody builds from "commercial blue prints" KY rifles just aren't that kind of project. Get your parts and sit down with them and draw out your pattern. That's what everybody here does when they build a gun from a blank. If you're building from a kit you won't need a "blueprint".

[Don Getz]

I recall several years ago I bought a Pump trap gun from one of the major arms companies.   After receiving it I looked at
the buttstock of the gun and it somewhat resembled one found on a BB gun.   It really p_____d me off, and I fired a letter off to them complaining about the stock.   I told them it was a shame that they had an "engineer" design the buttstock
when they had good people working in their custom shop...........Don

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I recall several years ago I bought a Pump trap gun from one of the major arms companies.   After receiving it I looked at
the buttstock of the gun and it somewhat resembled one found on a BB gun.   It really p_____d me off, and I fired a letter off to them complaining about the stock.   I told them it was a shame that they had an "engineer" design the buttstock
when they had good people working in their custom shop...........Don

Oh I will have to hide that post from my friends here at GA Tech!!  Don, take it easy I am fascinated to see what comes out of all of this effort.......

[Dphariss]

thats the problem, the haines plans dont have much help for actually building one and in the description it even says theyre to convince people to build one from one of their kits... though the ones at muzzleloader builders supply have some lancaster plans with top views and such, theyre not all that in depth

also finding one in PDF form would help me immensely.. but i guess i could place markers every 10 inches or so and make individual scans of the rifle in sections (considering theyre full scale patterns), then convert the raster image to vectors, clean up in solid works and make printable, accurate templates from them...

but yeah, would really like to find better haines plans, or something very similar in appearance

I make stocks by sawing out the pattern then taking off everything that does not look like the stock I am making. I measure things like pull and drop before cutting the stock or use a known pattern. Cast off as needed is really not measured either its generally determined by how thick the blank is and how wide is the buttplate.
How the the gun measures is really irrelevant. It has to LOOK right for what its supposed to be. Since every one is subtly different blueprints are useless other than perhaps for a stock pattern. Drawings of guns made from kits are a poor reference.
I get the feeling from your posts that musical instruments are made to certain measurements. Long rifles are not, the parts determine a lot of what the gun will be. The position of the ramrod hole can change things from what was planned.
Contours may change constantly over over several inches. No 1/2" section being the same as those on either side. From the front of the lock mortise to the break of the comb is a mass of changing contours.
You would be far better off at this stage to buy a kit from Chambers and make a rifle from it. This will allow you to see what a rifle looks like and gain some experience, if it comes out well you can, if you wish, make money off it and use this to buy more parts. Its a cheap apprenticeship.
The typical gunmakers apprentice spent 3 to 5 years as an apprentice and in Europe at least several years as a journeyman gunmaker, traveling, spending a month or a year in place working and learning then moving on to become well versed in his trade.

Why a Chambers kit? Because some of the precarves on the market will not make a decent rifle and I trust Chambers based on the kit a guy came by with and the two friends have.

If you can get to a class on gun making it will be a great help no matter the style gun being built.

The only stocks I would trust from TOW are the Southern Mtn Rifle and the JP Beck not cut for patchbox.
I used two SMR stocks over the years, one for a brother in law and the other for a project I did with my son and they made into as good a rifle as one could want with allowances for a precarve. But they are only made for straight barrels. I had a rifle in the shop some years back made from the JP Beck and it held well and was comfortable to shoot.
I would recommend you buy or at least obtain through interlibrary loan Shumway's 2 volume set "Rifles of Colonial America" this is about the best for showing several views of the rifle and will give you a better idea of how original rifles looked.
TOW hypes Issac Haines and he was a fine maker. But he was not the only make of fine rifles.
I would also point out that I buy a lot of stuff from TOW and they give good service and have a wide array of parts and a GREAT catalog. But I have a long standing distrust of "kits" and precarved stocks.

Dan

[Rootsy]

I recall several years ago I bought a Pump trap gun from one of the major arms companies.   After receiving it I looked at
the buttstock of the gun and it somewhat resembled one found on a BB gun.   It really p_____d me off, and I fired a letter off to them complaining about the stock.   I told them it was a shame that they had an "engineer" design the buttstock
when they had good people working in their custom shop...........Don

 Blame the bean counters... Not the engineers...

[Rolf]

 What I miss on most patterns of stocks is a series of decent cross sections  That would be a major asset for me. Not all us of have the luxury of physically studying a well made flintlock rifle. I Norway and have to make due blueprints and pictures.

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Dave B]

AS,
You should consider getting a Quaker butt stock that Bob Leapley pre-carved up for the carving classes taught at the gun smithing school put on by the NMLRA at The University of Kentucky in Bowling Green. Then you would always have that as a point of reference. It was the pattern that we used when I took a carving class back in the mid 90's. It is the pattern used by John Bivins for his centennial rifles if I am not mistaken. The biggest trouble with this whole thing is that every gun you come across will be different depending on the component parts. Every original is different from its breatheren is subtle ways. Even those made by the exact same man had minor differences in hard ware, and barrel size, making the stock shape slightly different. You may consider calling up several of the guys doing precarved stocks and they may even have a second or broken stock they would make you a deal on that will be a great starting point for getting you familiar with the shapes that you need to replicate.

[Clark Badgett]

put on by the NMLRA at The University of Kentucky in Bowling Green.

AH-HMMM, that is Western Kentucky University. UK is located in Lexington. They played each other today in football.

[Rolf]

The quaker stock sounds like a good idea. I'll look into when I start on the rifle.

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Birddog6]

thats the problem, the haines plans dont have much help for actually building one and in the description it even says theyre to convince people to build one from one of their kits... though the ones at muzzleloader builders supply have some lancaster plans with top views and such, theyre not all that in depth

also finding one in PDF form would help me immensely.. but i guess i could place markers every 10 inches or so and make individual scans of the rifle in sections (considering theyre full scale patterns), then convert the raster image to vectors, clean up in solid works and make printable, accurate templates from them...

but yeah, would really like to find better haines plans, or something very similar in appearance

The plans are not made for engineering purposes or so set up a CNC machine, thus exact details are not required.  Also, 95% of the people looking at a properly drawn blueprint or plan would be totally confused of what they saw. And the 4% that did understand the blueprint, couldn't replicate it, they just understood it. So you end up with 1%  actually able to make it as drawn. And I doubt even they couldn't make 2 exactly alike.    IMHO.    And lastly, the drawing (plan) you will buy from TOW or places, is usually a drawn plan of what  "the artist" thought a I.Haines or whatever should look like. They are not made from measuring an actual original rifle, it is His or Her idea of what they think it would have looked like.  
And a good example is the Isaac Haines pattern from TOW.  Lay it out & then open the RCA book & look at the I. Haines rifle & you will see 3 similarities........  They are said to use wood & they both have steel & the both have brass on them.  That is pretty much it.

Everyone I know that wants to make a rifle similar to what they have seen in hand or on photos, try to simulate it by using the eye as their guide.  Some have a keen eye & some have very blurred vision.

Keith Lisle

[Dave B]

Western Kentucky University!.......OOps   No offence intended

[Dave B]

I know this would be insanely expensive but I had fantasized about using an insignia laser scanner my wife was practicing with to scan say the Edward Marshal rifle. The CNC carver would do the rest. I watched a Demo of a similar scanners results carving the  scanned image of a human hand. The detail was purely a function of how small a cutter you could chuck up in the Collet.  But like Keith points out having it in detail in front of you still wont guarantee your going to make it perfectly the same. It will help you to get closer

[J. Talbert]

I would agree with the aforementioned idea that for a novice, a good quality kit, such as a Chambers, would be a better starting platform for learning the complexities and subtleties of good stock architecture.
However if you're stuck on the idea of using drawn out plans, I would recommend any of the ones done years ago by Houston Harrison.  The only ones I can remember for sure that he did are the Edward Marshall rifle, and the Crockett rifle, but I'm pretty sure he did others.  Houston's a top notch builder and restorer and the plans he drew up were top notch also.
I'm not certain where they are available, but I'd guess possibly Tip Curtis, or MLB supplies.
Others here about may know.

Jeff

[Birddog6]

I think I have 4-5 dif rifles he has drawn. E. Marshal, I Haines, 1770 Lancaster, maybe a G. Jaeger, & seems like 2-3 more.  Would have to get them out but there are several of them.

Keith Lisle

[J. Talbert]

Follow up...

I was at Friendship today so I asked Tip Curtis about the prints.  He says he has a few of them left, but wasn't sure which ones.
Give him a call at home after the weeks out, if you're interested.

Jeff

[animus_divinus]

what i think ill do is go to track of the wolf.. find the rifle whos stock pattern i like, either the isaac haines or the jaeger (i like the stocky, beefy look of the jaeger, and the overall elegance of the haines)... and from the perfect side and top views of the rifles there i can use a program to vectorize and trace the outline of the top and side views.. then use the length of the barrel to give scale to the outline, and print patterns to give me a side and top profile to cut out, then i can just round down the edges with a rasp until i get it where i want it... oh, and use the buttplate i choose for the profile of the buttstock

[Mike Brooks]

I can tell you right now you're headed for disaster.

[Lucky R A]

   CNC, Laser Routers, Blueprints---Gosh, I remember when some of the purest used to think you needed an exorcism if you used a Dremel to do some inletting inside the lock mortise.   I tried building one rifle from a print, faithfully replicating the measurements, it was a club!   When I finally saw the Marshell rifle and then some of its kin at a KRA show, I began to wonder what the guy was measuring when he drew the plans.   There is absolutely, absolutely no substitute for getting up close and personal with originals, or some really good copies by some of the noted contemporary builders.   Save some money and a lot of frustration, attend a few of the shows that have both the CLA and KRA members guns on display.   A couple of hands on experiences will save you from the disaster that Mike so rightfully predicts. 

[Don Getz]

Animus..........you just don't seem to get it.....it won't work.    It's not like doing a duck decoy.........Don

[Jim Kibler]

Animus,

If you're set on stocking from a blank, perhaps you could purchase a reject preshaped stock to use as a guide.  Having this for reference will help you imensely.  Not having a lot of experience and working strictly from pictures is going to be pretty difficult.  Your idea of establishing side and top profiles may work if very careful, but the problem arises in the subtlies of stock architecture.  There is a great deal more than just rounding the corners from a squared profile.  One thing you must realize is that much of the stock architecture is established by the metal parts you have chosen for the build.   As others have suggested, get a good book on the subject and read it in detail.  I used Recreating the American Longrifle and it ended up being a pretty decent starting point.  Good luck.

Jim

[Bill of the 45th]

Animus, I  wish you success, and hope you discover that it's the journey, and not the destination tat drives most of us. It's Art by way of hand building, not a gun by way of manufacture.

Bill