markusb got me thinking... liquid wood?

[huntinguy]

In the places where a stock gets thin, could one coat the area with something like liquid wood (the penetrating resin used for fixing dry rot) and let that penetrate the area? Would that provide strength?

I wonder if it would penetrate the hardwood used in stocks? Or would it be a way to let one use a softer wood filler around an oops and then harden it up to usable?

Just thinking outside the box.... maybe too far.... outside the box.

[Jim Kibler]

If made properly, the longrifle stock doesn't need any treatment such as this.  If a mistake is made in inletting, it is often best to fill it with a matching piece of wood.

[Artificer]

I use a product called Minwax wood hardener for punky/soft areas of old stocks.

http://www.minwax.com/products/maintenance_and_repair/high_performance_wood_hardener.html

However, I'm not sure if you want a thin spot to be hardened, depending on where it is.  It may need the wood to be able to stretch a bit and come back.  Not sure if the wood hardener would cause it to crack rather than flex.

Gus

[whitebear]

Just a thought, don't hang me yet boys!  What does the wood look like after using the wood hardener?  Ant tinting, shiny spots or roughness.  What I am thinking is using it on the outside of a stock.

I use a product called Minwax wood hardener for punky/soft areas of old stocks.

http://www.minwax.com/products/maintenance_and_repair/high_performance_wood_hardener.html

However, I'm not sure if you want a thin spot to be hardened, depending on where it is.  It may need the wood to be able to stretch a bit and come back.  Not sure if the wood hardener would cause it to crack rather than flex.

Gus

[rich pierce]

I'm a fixin a knot on a rope right now.  I bet Dan can find us a tree.  Just kidding.

generally speaking, we lean toward traditional hereabouts.  Epoxy finishes are no doubt durable and have their advocates, but they probably won't catch on with this crowd.   

[Artificer]

Just a thought, don't hang me yet boys!  What does the wood look like after using the wood hardener?  Ant tinting, shiny spots or roughness.  What I am thinking is using it on the outside of a stock.

Most of the stocks I've used it on are old military stocks.  I stop sanding after using 150 grit as that was the smallest grit usually used for military stocks from the 03 through the M14.  I usually raise the grain once or maybe twice with acetone, then apply a coat of the wood hardener on soft spots and sometimes on the entire stock and handguard/s when dealing with birch wood.  This stuff dries fairly fast and/or at least becomes sticky pretty quick.  So if one starts at the area of the end of the butt, it will get tacky/sticky by the time you get to the front of the stock. 

This stuff REALLY raises the grain as acetone is used to keep it liquid.  Once dry, the stock will feel like you didn't sand it at all and the whiskers are HARD.  What I do then is sand it again with 150 grit to get it smooth as was done on military stocks.  Believe it or not, you can then stain the stock well with Fiebing's leather dye.  Not sure about other stains, but I think they would also work.  However, it also blocks the stain from going in too deep on the endgrain, so you get a very consistant colour.

I like to use this on birch stocks as I "think" it gives a sort of hardened skin to the soft birch that is something like case hardening with steel.

Gus

[Artificer]

I'm a fixin a knot on a rope right now.  I bet Dan can find us a tree.  Just kidding.

generally speaking, we lean toward traditional hereabouts.  Epoxy finishes are no doubt durable and have their advocates, but they probably won't catch on with this crowd.   

I agree and only use it on antique stocks in the places the wood is real punky or soft.

Gus

[Fred]

Due to the light poundage I have to shoot with my longbows I use 5/16 cedar shafting and I dip it in the min-wax hardener for the most part it stains a little darker than usual and it does help with arrow breakage

[Artificer]

P.S.  The wood hardener came in real handy on a very punky/soft M1836 Waters and Johnson pistol stock I restored with it, as getting rid of all the punky wood would have left almost no original wood. 

[huntinguy]

generally speaking, we lean toward traditional hereabouts.  Epoxy finishes are no doubt durable and have their advocates, but they probably won't catch on with this crowd.   

Didn’t mean to pollute the waters… just for some of us starter folks… real slow starter folks… we (I) need a little help on occasion. 

Just a thought, don't hang me yet boys!  What does the wood look like after using the wood hardener?  Ant tinting, shiny spots or roughness.  What I am thinking is using it on the outside of a stock.

I like to use this on birch stocks as I "think" it gives a sort of hardened skin to the soft birch that is something like case hardening with steel.

Gus

That is kinda what I was askin… but… rich has rope and I don’t want to check it out… 

Due to the light poundage I have to shoot with my longbows I use 5/16 cedar shafting and I dip it in the min-wax hardener for the most part it stains a little darker than usual and it does help with arrow breakage

I am going to have to try that… you don’t want to know how many short shafts I now have… some times those stumps look softer than they are….. 

[Dphariss]

In the places where a stock gets thin, could one coat the area with something like liquid wood (the penetrating resin used for fixing dry rot) and let that penetrate the area? Would that provide strength?

I wonder if it would penetrate the hardwood used in stocks? Or would it be a way to let one use a softer wood filler around an oops and then harden it up to usable?

Just thinking outside the box.... maybe too far.... outside the box.

This stuff will not penetrate good wood far enough to make a difference unless applied to the end grain even then maple is not like oak or walnut
The recommended process is to drill a pattern of holes in the rotted wood , apply the epoxy so it can run into the holes and then spread from there.
It is then top coated with a thicker epoxy.
This is how I fixed a small area of floor rot in an Airstream with epoxy from "Rot Doctor"  following there directions. If you want to try this I would likely used their products its what they specialize in.
Getting ANYTHING to penetrate hard maple deeply across the grain is "difficult" .
Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

The 'stabilized wood' blanks, used for pistol grips and such, are epoxy embedded. The wood is under extreme vacuum or pressure, I can't remember which, to fill the wood with epoxy.

You would need a similar technique to get epoxy to soak into maple.

[Dphariss]

The 'stabilized wood' blanks, used for pistol grips and such, are epoxy embedded. The wood is under extreme vacuum or pressure, I can't remember which, to fill the wood with epoxy.

You would need a similar technique to get epoxy to soak into maple.

Yeah, they are vacuum tanked IIRC. Heavy, ugly. But somewhat stable, I guess.

Dan

[Artificer]

A company sent us two samples of the epoxy pressure injected, oversize Walnut, Bishop style NM stocks in the '80's.  We were skeptical of how far in the epoxy went so they allowed us to cut one of our choice anywhere and everywhere we wanted.  The thickest portions of those stocks were close to what would be used for a blank for long rifles.  We cut the stocks all the way through in five or six places at the widest points and the epoxy had indeed gone all the way through the wood. 

We cut them on a large industrial, Doall vertical metal cutting band saw and they were not easy to cut.  To route them, we had to use carbide cutters and even that wasn't easy.  So I suspect they would play heck with carving chisels.  They were hard on files and rasps as well.  Our problem was they cost more than McMillan fiberglass stocks, so we never ordered any for The Marine Corps Rifle Team.   I used two or three over the years and I know a few others that were used just because they had the look of wood vs fiberglass.  They were extremely stable and very heavy for their mass, but they never really caught on due to the higher cost.

[FL-Flintlock]

A company sent us two samples of the epoxy pressure injected, oversize Walnut, Bishop style NM stocks in the '80's.  We were skeptical of how far in the epoxy went so they allowed us to cut one of our choice anywhere and everywhere we wanted.  The thickest portions of those stocks were close to what would be used for a blank for long rifles.  We cut the stocks all the way through in five or six places at the widest points and the epoxy had indeed gone all the way through the wood.  

We cut them on a large industrial, Doall vertical metal cutting band saw and they were not easy to cut.  To route them, we had to use carbide cutters and even that wasn't easy.  So I suspect they would play heck with carving chisels.  They were hard on files and rasps as well.  Our problem was they cost more than McMillan fiberglass stocks, so we never ordered any for The Marine Corps Rifle Team.   I used two or three over the years and I know a few others that were used just because they had the look of wood vs fiberglass.  They were extremely stable and very heavy for their mass, but they never really caught on due to the higher cost.

Thanks for describing the way it's not supposed to be done.

Thus is the difference between generic $#@* and quality engineered work.  Couple guys surfing the internet get themselves some generic epoxy and discount fiberglass & carbon fiber blanket and all of a sudden they're in the reinforced laminated stock blank business ... or so they thought    

Epxoy is what it is, anyone who has invested the time, effort and money into this topic as I have knows that one must utilize a low-mass resin that is custom blened to work properly with wood which also eliminates the need for complete impregnation and thus not adding much mass at all.  One also understands that the treatment happens at the end of the process, not the begining.  Depending on the stock and desired/required options, you're looking at adding less than a pound of mass.

The cost is very reasonable when put into perspective.  Someone spending $2-4k+ on a barreled action, another $1-2K+ on gunsmithing, $2-5k+ on engraving, $1-3k+ on carving & inlays ... quite often proper stock treatment is very reasonable starting at $200 which is what most gunsmiths charge for their so-called "rubbed oil" finishes.  

[Artificer]

Thanks for describing the way it's not supposed to be done.

Yeah.  Sticking with long rifles,  I just don't see enough advantage gained to go through the trouble of using one of these stocks.

Gus

[FL-Flintlock]

Thanks for describing the way it's not supposed to be done.

Yeah.  Sticking with long rifles,  I just don't see enough advantage gained to go through the trouble of using one of these stocks.

Gus

Gus,

I think you missed the point I was making, the process you described is NOT the way to do it ... totally impregnating the wood with common epoxy isn't necessary and can actually cause accuracy issues.  Most all hard-setting epoxy blends are not thermally stable and will often cause the stock warp more from thermal differentials than if the wood was left as God made it.  Most epoxy blends are not UV stable either which means they're going to break down over time, the beginning stages are usually indicated by the material taking on a permanent twist/bend or peeling, then becoming brittle.  Another issue associated with the majority of epoxy compounds is thier release of corrosive gases not only while curing but continuously which is why the most common epoxy brands used by many gunsmiths have been banned from use by the majority of museums and historical preservation organizations - if one does some digging, the list is, or at least was, available on-line.  

The process I developed uses a highly specialized resin and is not applied until after all the stock work is done, not to the blank.  Of course the individual piece of wood dictates how much resin is required but normally the range is only 3-7 ounces of additional mass.

There are some "modern" products and methods that lend themselves to traditional guns especially if one if building guns suitable for both looks and optimum performance or durability.  How many dainty longrifles we see with broken wrists yet one can effectively prevent the problem and, if so desired, cover their tracks to the point where most would likely not see it even if the gun was completely disassembled.  Bedding barrels with Ultra-RVC where one cannot visually tell where the BLO ends and the bedding begins even with the barrel removed from the stock.  The problem with most of these discussions is that the majority have been turned off by the lack of performance of products that are not compatible with the application and/or alleged gunsmiths/builders who cobbled something together without any understanding of the concepts, methods or materials.  If I didn't burn it, I'll post pic's of a stock that is the paramount example of what not to do and what not to use.