Author Topic: RCA #73  (Read 13387 times)

Bentflint

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RCA #73
« on: September 17, 2010, 07:10:41 PM »
What a cool rifle. There are a few things I just can't see good enough in the pictures to figure out.

First, do you think the Early Ketland can be modified to make a close resemblance of the origanal lock? I wonder if the cock could be replaced with the late Ketland cock, it has a more full body like the one in the pictures.

The tow plate has me baffled, I just can't see it. In one picture it looks like a short brass plate nailed on but, in another picture it looks like it's part of the butt plate. In another it's like it might be L shaped and covers a 1/4" or so under the the butt.

The finial on the butt plate looks to be pinned at the front. I wonder when the 2nd hole was drilled on the left side, or maybe a bug hole.

What do think the origanal patch box looked like. I would guess a sliding wood box cover. I do not have any other reference for J Newcomer guns.

Any thoughts? Bruce
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 07:14:20 PM by Bentflint »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2010, 08:14:07 PM »
I wouldn't worry about the lock not being exactly the same.  Without the original rifle in hand while building, there are inevetibly going to be fairly substantial differences anyway. 

I'm not sure of the excact details regarding the butplate / toeplate, but I do know that a piece has been added to the toe of the butplate.  It seems this is bent over forming a bit of a toeplate.  Why this piece was added I'm not sure.  I don't know if the bottom of the butplate broke off at some point or it was built with the add on piece.  Shumway makes no mention of this.

If the rifle had a wood box originally, it of course should be evident from the butplate.  I don't have any photographs that show whether there was a cut out for the box lid or not.

There is the fowler previously attributed to Bullard that is accepted as a Newcomer today.  This attribution was made possible when another similar signed Newcomer fowler surfaced.  Shumway shows another smoothbore in one of his muzzleblasts articles that is likely a Newcomer.  This is included in the compelation of articles currently available.  It seems there is one additional rifle identified as a Newcomer shown in Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850.

Hope this helps.  Good Luck.

Jim

Bentflint

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2010, 12:33:51 AM »
I see what you mean about the butt plate. I have looked at it 50 times and can't see a dovetail. I thought it might have been a shallow dovetail and when the brass lid was fitted it could have filed off leaving just enough to accommodate the new lid. Also could have brass box that had been damaged and could be repaired so it was replaced.

Anyhow, I am moving forward with a Newcomer style gun. I have a butt plate and guard from Reeves that can be altered and will be very close to #73. I am using a short barrel though, only 46", a Rice B in .50 and it is rifled. We'll see what happens.

Thanks. Bruce

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 01:55:14 AM »
Bruce,

Sounds like an interesting project.  One thing you might want to consider is a little larger barrel.  Shumway lists the width at the breech as 1 1/16".  I believe this is the breech on a Rice "C" weight barrel.  I know it doesn't seem like a lot of difference between a "B" and a "C" weight barrel, but you will notice it.  This is a pretty good sized relatively early rifle and a decent sized barrel would be a good thing.  I wouldn't even be afraid to use a barrel up to 1 1/8" inch at the breech.  Shumway lists the wrist width at 1 1/2".  I think you will be very hard pressed to get that with a "B" weight barrel.

Offline flehto

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 03:41:25 PM »
My knowledge is quite lacking asre "old rifles" so my questions possibly reflect this and I don't know the latest info on RCA  #73, but is this LR a restock or possibly made by a Newcomer from the South? Seems it doesn't "fit" w/ a Lancaster label? Just curious since first seeing it in Kindig's book....Fred

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2010, 04:40:29 PM »
Fred, I think this one of those questions about what else was made in Lancaster early before the standard Lancaster pattern ( Dickert /Moravian influenced ) was used widely.

Newcomer, Matthias and Peter Roesser ( ghost patchbox ) , J Feree among others are working in Lancaster but their work is not the Lancaster standard as we know it.

All the more interesting.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 03:20:05 AM »
There are also similarities to the Free Born rifle in the cheekpiece design and some small carving details.  I wish we knew the relationships between the Roessors, Newcomer, Schroyer and others.  There are several rifles from different early Lancaster/York makers sharing this cheekpiece design and the transition of the comb to wrist; the similarities are striking.

The original patchbox, hmmmm, guess I'd go with a Schroyer sliding wooden patchbox design.
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Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 05:01:40 AM »
"Peter Roesser ( ghost patchbox )" - I've heard this referred to before.  Where is a good reference for this piece?
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Offline Tom Currie

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 05:06:20 PM »
The best pictures of the Peter Roesser "ghost patchbox " rifle are in R.L.Wilson's book Steel Canvas. It also pictured in Shumways's Long Rifle articles vol#1. It has enough similiarities to Shroyers work that Shumway suggested he would  re think some attributions given to Shroyer in RCA #2 and his Shroyer book.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2010, 07:21:29 PM »
The Ghost rifle is one of the greatest longrifles ever made.  It has strong architectural similarities to the Newcomer rifle mentioned above, a distinct patchbox and carving that is out of this world.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 08:35:30 PM »
The Ghost rifle is one of the greatest longrifles ever made.  It has strong architectural similarities to the Newcomer rifle mentioned above, a distinct patchbox and carving that is out of this world.

Got any pictures for those of us who are picture book challenged??
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 12:11:02 AM »
Or how about a page number?  I thought I'd been around the barn but I've never heard of the Ghost Rifle. 

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 01:10:46 AM »
Ryan,

The Peter Resor rifle is pictured on page 39 of Steel Canvas.

Rich,

So what makes this one of the greatest longrifles ever made?  To me I see a pretty decent 1770's period rifle and that is about it.  The architecture is ok, but the decoration is pretty niave.  From a folk art standpoint it's again ok in my view, but nothing great.  I've never understood why some make such a fuss over this rifle.  Help me out.

Jim

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 03:56:10 AM »
Okay, I pulled out Longrifles of Note (Vol 1).  There is one Peter Resor, pages 148-150.  It is indeed a fine speciman.  What gives it the nick name "Ghost Rifle" or "Ghost Patchbox".  It's not mentioned by Shumway.  The phot of the patchbox is not real clear.
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Offline Dphariss

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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 04:02:38 AM »
Its hard to judge on just one photo and I don't think I have any others.
But it has a 4 piece patchbox that is engraved, so circa 1770 they don't have to be wood or simple brass.
It elaborately carved.
Its folk art but many longrifles were. Like the lion and griffin.
Its an early rifle, could be late 1760s, but its only 42 caliber. This is informative in itself .
Its in good enough condition to study it was it was made not as it survived.
These things all make it a a great rifle.

Dan
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 05:24:51 AM »
Rich,
I've never understood why some make such a fuss over this rifle.  Help me out.
Jim
Jim, I’ll do my best to try to express how this rifle (Peter Resor rifle on page 39 of Steel Canvas and featured by Shumway in Muzzle Blasts March 1988; often called the Ghost rifle because of the unique figure engraved on the patchbox finial) impresses me, but sometimes it’s the sum of the parts and maybe some reactions are subconscious and hard to know, let alone articulate.  In general I'm not crazy excited about 1770's and later rifles.  I love them, but am not excited like I get for earlier guns.  While some have placed this gun as quite early, I cannot see it as pre-1770, but I can see 42 as pre-1770. For the sake of discussion I will compare my “scores” for the Ghost rifle by Roesser to my scores for a "truly great" rifle, RCA 42.  To me this one (Ghost rifle) is in the same class as the Newcomer gun we're talking about, which also impresses me greatly as a distinctive early rifle.  First time I saw 42, in Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850, all other guns in the book paled in comparison.  First time I saw the Ghost rifle in Shumways MB article, I had the same reaction.   In some ways (I am baiting you here) I find it equally or more distinctive than 42.  RCA 42 has a patchbox that is important as one of the earliest side-opening patchbox, but the box is plain; without any interesting artistic design.  The patchbox of Ghost by comparison is visually much more interesting and is decorated with a unique engraving of a ghost on the finial.  The architecture of the Ghost rifle is clean and muscular, masculine, same as I'd describe #42.  Both are in my mind evolved longrifles.  I can see the Germanic roots but the bulk is gone by now for 42, Ghost, Newcomer.  The furniture on Ghost is exquisitely crafted and close to other Lancaster and York rifles; the furniture on 42 is close to other CS rifles; this equals a draw in my mind, where I am scorekeeper.  I give bonus points to Ghost for the cameo wrist , which is distinctive, not a Dickert copy, and highlighted nicely by little cuts adjacent to it on the buttstock.  The cheekpiece and comb termination on Ghost are of the mini-school that includes Newcomer, Roesser, Free Born, some Schroyers, so there’s little novelty there; =draw with 42 for these areas.  The carving behind the cheekpiece of Ghost, while not classical rococo, is superbly executed in relief and related to Free Born, Newcomer, Kindig 18, and a Schroyer-attributed rifle, RCA 92, which may be a Roessor in my mind.  But the Ghost cheekpiece carving is completely distinctive in design.  42 has superb but not unique cheekpiece carving that is closely linked to a great many CS and Lancaster guns.  However, to me the rest of the crazy and strong buttstock  carving on 42 is in a class by itself.   Like 42, Ghost has a beautiful lock.  Within that mini-school that exists in my mind, the Ghost rifle is a great and highly distinctive rifle.  I would not say much more than  that in summarizing 42, except that it is an important roots gun for side-openers, like the Deschler rifle is, or the Leyendecker rifle was.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 05:28:43 AM by richpierce »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 06:23:49 AM »
Rich,

I guess I see this gun as a decent example of a 1770's rifle, but not one of the "greatest longrifles".  The architecture is ok and the mounts are quite nice, but from a decorative standpoint, I see the rifle as being nothing fantastic.  There are many others from this time period which I see as much more of a sucess.  The lock is nice, but being a British import lock, I don't put a great deal of significance on it when evaluating the merits of the rifle.  This is not to diminish the importance of this rifle and it's place in history.  I guess to some extent this sort of thing is pretty subjective.  A few other random thoughts...    I'd not noticed the connection before, but compare the box of this rifle to the Valentine Fondersmith rifle and the signed Newcomer fowler.  Pretty interesting.  I agree that there is great deal unknown about the possible connections between Newcomer, Shroyer, Resor and a few others that may include Shriver, Fondersmith and even perhaps Noll.  Including the Free Born rifle in the mix, is a little too big of a step for me though.  Maybe as time passes more information will be uncovered. 

Jim

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 07:56:18 AM »
OK, now I know the one.  Nice rifle.  (Amazing trigger guard.)

I think what sets it apart is that we have every single artistic element in place, in a very successful folk art presentation.  Much more exciting than some of the cookie cutter repetition done with perhaps better execution.  I think the most exciting rifles are those that achieve "best quality folk art."  The John Schneider rifle on the next page over has this same intangible quality.  Isaac Haines style perfection just doesn't do this for me, and I suspect for most people.  Or it seems that way if you watch how the trade is going now. 

It's like the difference between beautiful and sexy.  That's the best way I have of saying it.


Mike R

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 03:39:00 PM »
Okay, I pulled out Longrifles of Note (Vol 1).  There is one Peter Resor, pages 148-150.  It is indeed a fine speciman.  What gives it the nick name "Ghost Rifle" or "Ghost Patchbox".  It's not mentioned by Shumway.  The phot of the patchbox is not real clear.

I don't think this is the rifle under discussion as the 'ghost'--the only pic I have seen of it is in Steel Canvas.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 04:13:14 PM »
Good discussion and wish we could gather around the originals for a few hours!  Any of these rifles would be a great treat to study in person.  Regarding connections between early rifles, the Free Born connection is a stretch as it is the earliest-styled of the lot with the stepped wrist and a more massive feeling buttstock.  In Free Born I see something in the comb termination, the form of the cheekpiece, and some little carving details that are similar to details in Schroyer, Newcomer, and Roessor rifles.

If we've run this topic in the ground, what about 92?  Does that one knock your socks off? I saw it in person at a CLA show maybe 5 years ago. I know the cheekpiece carving is a little imperfect-looking in pictures but this is an early rifle that has it all for me.  It was probably made around the same time or a few years earlier than this Newcomer, and has some serious mass in the buttstock.  Think the guard rail was originally straighter?
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2010, 05:05:48 PM »
I think RCA 92 is a fantastic rifle.  It has great architecture.  The butplate is huge (approaching 2 3/8"), however the rifle is still refined and graceful in shape.  I don't think the gurard grip rail was ever straighter.  It's of a similar pattern to #94 with the small bow and relatively long grip rail.  In some ways the decoration on this rifle also approaches folk art, but in my view is much more succesful.   

One thing to consider about folk art...  At some point you have to separate it from artistic failure.  Something can be naive and good but the opposite can also be true.  The lion an lamb rifles, the griffin rifle, the peapicker rifle and the John Schneider 1776 rifle are all examples of succesful folk art in my view.  Regarding the desireability of more refined academic rifles...  I don't think there is any shortage of appreciation for grand works such as the great Isac Haines.  If we knew the selling price history, I think this would be confirmed.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2010, 08:28:14 PM »
I would call this mini school the " Shumway's Shroyer signature tang carving group "

The rifles mentioned all have that feature, whith the exception of Free Born.

Regarding RCA 92, how about the similairities of it to Kindig#18 (Shumway articles vol#1 page 208 ) The little C hooks in the carving and the patchbox lid carving.

Roessers ghost, Free Born and RCA 92 all have the front finial screw in just a circle of brass. Only three that this student knows of.

On the Free Born RCA 114, the carving on the the cheek side seems so disconnected top to bottom.  Anyone care to comment on that ? It's always had me wondering about it.

I've liked this group of rifles so much my 3rd rifle patchbox is basically a compilation of them, with some Shroyer sideplates added.
 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 08:49:43 PM »
Nice work on that PB. I like your observation on the front screw on the PB finial being encircled by a ring of brass. That's a winner.

The Free Born carving is not that clear to me.  Maybe if it wasn't so worn.  The tang carving is really worn off.  Behind the cheekpiece I think the connections of the uppermost scroll that goes to the heel and the lower ones are lost.   Photo below borrowed from the American Historic Services website, which is a must-see http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/home.html



The carving does have the little reversals etc that are found on Newcomer 73 and etc.

Kindig 18 is a killer rifle.  The carving is the equal of Berlin's work in my mind.  A lot of movement.  That rifle is truly grand.  Matthias?  I see strong connections between that rifle and many of these, and subsequent rifles like a Ferree and the Davy Crockett rifle, if I am disremembering correctly.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 08:53:22 PM by richpierce »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 02:55:16 AM »
Throwing Kindig #18 in the mix confuses things a bit.  Although the box lid engraving is very similar to RCA #92 there are also significant connections between it and an early George Krepps rifle.  This rifle is shown in Maryland Longrifles by Hartzler and Whisker on pages 69-70.  It's also tied to the rifle with the box signed John Noll in Bart Township.  I am told this rifle has been confirmed to be a restock so John Noll was likely not the stocker.  It's also tied to a relatively coarsely finished cherry stocked rifle by similar cheek carving.  By using these rifles and perhaps others, I understand that a Maryland attribution for #18 is suggested by some.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #73
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2010, 05:16:46 AM »
Thanks, good info to have.  Seems to me the maker of Kindig 18 was a real master.
Andover, Vermont