Author Topic: long distance shooting  (Read 16945 times)

karwelis

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long distance shooting
« on: September 18, 2010, 09:00:19 PM »
ive got a question here, why is it people have a hard time believing that a quality rifle can shoot flat out to 150 yards? i have a great hawken with a douglas barrel, and she shoots very flat out to that distance. i made a comment on another forum about this and they all flipped out saying no way! ive read reports written back in the 1920's about hawkens rifles and how flat they shoot. is it just me or are they smoking funny stuff? just asking

mike e

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2010, 09:45:51 PM »
How do you define "shooting flat". A patched round ball's gonna have a considerable arch even if you sight in at 150 yards. Won't it hit high at 75-100 yards?

Offline T*O*F

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2010, 09:48:59 PM »
Quote
why is it people have a hard time believing that a quality rifle can shoot flat out to 150 yards?
2 Reasons:
a.  They are ignorant.
b.  They've never been to the silohouette range at Friendship.

It's really not the gun, it's the sights.  Most LR type sights are too low to allow any elevation and you have to hold over.  Taller sights will allow you to show more front blade to adjust.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 10:17:28 PM »
ive got a question here, why is it people have a hard time believing that a quality rifle can shoot flat out to 150 yards? i have a great hawken with a douglas barrel, and she shoots very flat out to that distance. i made a comment on another forum about this and they all flipped out saying no way! ive read reports written back in the 1920's about hawkens rifles and how flat they shoot. is it just me or are they smoking funny stuff? just asking

How flat is flat?
Bench it at 25-50-75-100-125-150 and give us a rise and fall. Then tell us of how flat shooting.
Most 50-54 caliber rifles, if loaded for high velocity, will have about a 3" rise and fall to 120-130 yards if sighted for 110-120 yards. If sighted for 50 yards or even 100 it will not shoot flat enough for hunting to 150.
Sighted for 130  the mid-range will get a little high but likely doable for deer. I like to keep the ball withing 3" of the line of sight for a deer hunting mid-range.
I know of an original Hawken rifle that is likely sighted for 150+ based on reports of people who have shot it including at game.
If you know where to hold for 90 yards or so this will work but could result is shooting over a deer at the mid-range since the mid-range might be over 6".
The reason RB rifles do not shoot flat to 150 is the velocity falls to about 1000-1100 fps by 100 yards and its impossible to have a flat trajectory over 50 yards with this velocity.
So its hard to believe that the trajectory is flat enough for a "point blank range" for the game we generally hunt. No point blank range, no flat trajectory.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dan

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2010, 03:03:45 PM »
All things are relative to other things.

Daryl

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 06:46:38 PM »
Dan's annalogy is most accurate.  Much depends on the zero range - however midrange rise becomes excessive with a  long range sight-in.  Much also depends on the size of the intended target.  How much error does it allow?  Missing the centre by 2feet and still ringing a gong gives the illusion of a flatter shooting gun that it is.

The round ball has a terrible ballistic shape, ie: slows down quickly and is very susecptable to wind drift. The only shape that is worse, is the Foster-type shotgun slug. Some of the minnie balls in .58 cal , have similar ballistic properties to the round ball, ie; the 315gr. and the 350gr. and therefore lack the trajectory of a round ball.

If the initial speed is the same and the ballistic coefficient is the same, the trajectory will be the same, as-will the wind drift.  Ie: a .54 cal ball with a BC of .080 is travelling at 1,600fps, it will have the identical trajectory to a .30 cal. bullet with a BC of .080, started at 1,600fps.

Offline Keb

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 07:51:30 PM »
Dphariss has the right idea. If you do this, you will see the gun does not shoot "flat" at any distance. Gravity takes over as soon as the ball leaves the end of the barrel. Velocity can not overcome gravity at all. Time and the angle of the barrel may make it appear it does but it is impossible.
You can prove this to yourself by using a bubble level and a cheap laser pointer. Clamp the gun so the bore is level. Using the laser taped to the barrel, put the dot on the center of the target. The ball will drop as soon as it leaves the bore. The greater the distance to the target the more drop you will have. I'm sure there is a mathematical formula that could be used to prove this but I can't even keep my check book balanced. :/

According to one of Lyman's ballistic charts, a 490 Gr. bullet fired at 1300 fps will drop 2.56" in 50 yards, 10.83" in 100 yards, & 25.30" in 150 yards. It will drop a whopping 518.54" in 600 yards, velocity will slow to 889 fps. and take just under 2 seconds to reach the target.  That's a lot.


Daryl

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 12:43:37 AM »
Every innert projectile launched from a barrel drops at the rate of 16 feet per second per second of flight.  All projectiles drop at the same rate - however, the higher the ballistic coefficient (coefficient of friction) and the higher that projectile's velocity, the further it will travel in each second of flight.

 For example, a round ball might travel only 200 yards in the same time a slower starting but better shaped projectile travels 400 yards. The better shaped projectile loses velocity at a slower rate and therefore travels further in the same period of time.  The drop will be the same at their respective ranges - 200 yards for the round ball, 400 yards for the better, more streamlined projectile.


Neither shoots flat, as all projectiles (as Keb noted) start dropping as soon as they leave the muzzle.

Higher sights and longer zero ranges give the illusion of flatter shooting, but also increase the mid range height of the ball.

We round ball shooters have an advantage over slug shooters inside normal hunting ranges, in that we can drive a much lighter round ball at a velocity that overcomes the faster slowing down the ball possesses.  The slug shooter is confined to lower than round ball speeds due to pressures generated, and therefore has to contend with greater drop over normal ranges than we do.  This then shows the round ball can be driven flatter shooting than the other projectile - but - it isn't flat shooting by definition.  Even my high velocity .17 cal. modern rifles that seem to shoot like laser beams, really aren't flat shooting over any range.

 We might call it "flat shooting" in a relative context, though, in comparrison to another ball or bullet.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 03:40:31 AM »
I would sight in a rifle to hit dead on, or maybe and inch high at 50 yards, then check to see how much drop you would
get at 100, then do the same check at 150.    In a 54 with 90 to 100 grains of FF it will probably drop about 3" at 100 yards, and probably about a foot at 150.    I would never consider this to be shooting "flat".............Don

Offline Dan

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 03:44:03 PM »
My flinter shoots flatter than a pancake but not as flat as Kansas.

http://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i3/kansas.html

Quote
Mathematically, a value of 1.000 would indicate perfect, platonic flatness. The calculated flatness of the pancake transect from the digital image is approximately 0.957, which is pretty flat, but far from perfectly flat. The confocal laser scan showed the pancake surface to be slightly rougher, still.

Measuring the flatness of Kansas presented us with a greater challenge than measuring the flatness of the pancake. The state is so flat that the off-the-shelf software produced a flatness value for it of 1. This value was, as they say, too good to be true, so we did a more complex analysis, and after many hours of programming work, we were able to estimate that Kansas’s flatness is approximately 0.9997. That degree of flatness might be described, mathematically, as “@!*% flat.”
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 03:45:18 PM by Dan »

Daryl

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 06:24:33 PM »
 ;D ;D

karwelis

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 09:11:06 PM »
wow i just read over at the "other" place where this originally came up, and the responses are starting to get really funny. its almost like they have never even tried for a long shot with there rifles. i mean i know not all rifles will do this. i have a beautiful bethlehem county flinter that drops like 12" at 150 yards, but my hawken does shoot flat that far out. some of these "desk jockey's" as i like to call them just amaze me! my favorite that they like to go on and on about is that the effective "kill" range is 75 yards or less. 

Offline Dan

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 11:06:07 PM »
What site would that be?  ???  I'm bored and inclined to run with scissors today. ;)

karwelis

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 11:42:58 PM »
What site would that be?  ???  I'm bored and inclined to run with scissors today. ;)

heres the forum
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?
and heres the current topic with stupid people
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/249987/

Offline Dan

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 03:18:59 AM »
Thanks!  Cry Havoc, let slip the dogs of war!


Offline Dan

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2010, 05:54:41 AM »
Well now, I went and looked.  I'm thinking it's all in how you look at it.  Saturn's rings are flat, unless you're seeing them sideways.

karwelis

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2010, 06:01:07 AM »
Well now, I went and looked.  I'm thinking it's all in how you look at it.  Saturn's rings are flat, unless you're seeing them sideways.
yeah i know, those desk jockey's dont get out and shoot much. i have one gun that shoots very flat at that range, and others that dont

California Kid

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2010, 06:33:45 AM »
Just read the entire thread on the other forum. They do know what they are talking about for the most part. You don't seem to get it. Your gun doesn't shoot flat with 60 or 100 grains of powder. Chill!

karwelis

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2010, 06:42:54 AM »
Just read the entire thread on the other forum. They do know what they are talking about for the most part. You don't seem to get it. Your gun doesn't shoot flat with 60 or 100 grains of powder. Chill!
actaully my hawken does, my others dont

California Kid

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 06:44:15 AM »
Have your fantasy, I'm done.

Mike R

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 03:51:34 PM »
semantics here?  "flat" is a relative term and it has been acceptable in shooting circles for years to refer to "flat-shooting" guns when in fact we know that the natural laws of physics do not allow true 'flatness' in trajectory.  All inert projectiles follow a ballistic arc. However it is fair to say that some have a 'flatter' arc than others. If that is what crow killer is saying then all need to chill...if he really believes that his trajectory is geometrically flat, then he needs to read up on ballistics, but I think he is speaking in relative terms--right?

Offline Don Getz

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 03:55:49 PM »
Crow.....back to the same definition.......what is "flat".    Are you trying to tell us that when you shoot a roundball out of your
Hawken, it doesn't "drop", all the way out to 150 yards?     I may have been born in the dark but it wasn't last night........Don

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2010, 04:25:52 PM »
Crow Killer, Just out of curiousity, what caliber & load are you shooting, what muzzle velocity are you getting, how do you know it's a 'flat' trajectory, and are your  targets at ranges like 50, 100, and 150 yds, and what sight picture are you using?

Daryl

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 06:56:55 PM »
yeah i know, those desk jockey's dont get out and shoot much. i have one gun that shoots very flat at that range, and others that dont

CrowKiller - we do get out and shoot - a lot.  Somoe of us go through over 25 pounds of powder a year- and that's just black powder. Add another 5 to 10 pounds of modern rifle shooting with smokeless powder to that figure.  Weshoot at close stuff and we shoot at fairly long range - at times, much longer ranges than many people shoot round balls - ie: out to 250 and even 300yards.  Even our trail walk has 1/2 dozen targets that are 100 yards or farther out.  At times there will be 1/2 dozen guys shooting smoothbores on that trail as well as a few rifles.

 
As flat shooting in appearance as they seem to be, even the highest velocity gun today, shooting the highest BC bullet does not shoot flat.  This is as much a fact for the 16" guns of our WW11 Battleships as it is for your Hawken.  Neither your Hawken nor the 16" cannon shoots flat to 150yards or any other range, for that matter.

 

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: long distance shooting
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2010, 07:43:35 PM »
I wonder if some people call flat shooting guns ones that dont need holdover at certain ranges. I know some think they have an accurate rifle simply because it is sighted in and not because of grouping abilities.    Gary