I hated to do it. Time for a new approach/ NEW PICS ADDED

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  As you may know my first build lacked Architecture,  So I went to remedy this.


   After seeing some originals, Handling a well made rifle and doing some reaserch, not to mention alot of helpful advice I lost my beavertails and reshaped the stock.  Please tell me I'm on the right track.




 I alsohave a pic of the front of the nosecap.




Rich

[bgf]

Technically, I don't know (anything about that style of rifle, especially), but I admire your willingness to start over and keep at it until you get it the best you can. The reward at the end is that there's a difference between accepting mistakes that you just can't fix and simply being lazy, and you'll know you did what you could.

[BrightEyes]

Very proud of this man..take my word for it he works at getting every little thing the way it should look or at least close to it..When he works its like watchin one of Santa's elves workin at Christmas very intense. Sometimes funny, to see the looks on the face, hear the talk rated R, walk away, then return.  All in all very determind..I so admire that.
Brighteyes

[b bogart]

Those rated R words are part of handcrafting anything Bright Eyes. Once mastered they only come out at appropriate times (alot of the for me). Keep supporting his efforts!

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Once you round it off, it will look better.

[rich pierce]

I'd not touch another tool until you get an accomplished builder to guide your work as you try to get the most you can out of this stock.

The lock area has to have panels, even w/o beavertails.  That is, there has to be a flat that rises above the curved stock.  The tail of the lock panels has to be above the plane of the wrist.  Look at Don Getz's plain rifles to see what I mean.

What's going on at the muzzle?  Looks like the barrel is only partially inletted and there are 2 types of wood?  Is the barrel in square?  It looks a little canted.

I'd not touch another tool until you get an accomplished builder to guide your work as you try to get the most you can out of this stock.  Salvaging a build when there have been some mistakes is 3x as hard and requires 3x the skill and mastery as doing a simple build.

[T*O*F]

I'd not touch another tool until you get an accomplished builder to guide your work as you try to get the most you can out of this stock.

DITTO!!  Before you did that, it was an easy fix.  Now I'm not so sure it can be salvaged.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  Rich,

  I see withatyour saying after looking at the pic of the nosecap.  I didn't relize just how off it is.  I really have alot of work to do on it.  The barrel is square in the channel the whole forestock needs some more shaping.  I just never noticed it until I posted that pic.  AAAARRRRGGGHHHH.


    Rich

[Ryan McNabb]

This is why it's such a tragedy for beginners to buy expensive wood to build their first dozen or so rifles.  I congratulate you for the courage it took to rasp all that off, but it really is good advice to stop at this point.  There are problems of perception that need to be addressed personally, with someone at your elbow, and maybe not over the internet or looking at photographs.

Don't lose heart.  It's just a stick of maple.  If you cut it up and put it in the stove, you would still have gained a great deal of learning.  View this as a journey, and shavings and filings are the fuel that power you on your way.  Just think how much better prepared you'll be for the next one.  Which is why it's addictive - you always have one more chance to "get it right".

[Mike Brooks]

May be time to pitch that stock and start over. This may help you get started again.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/tutorials/brooks/Brooks1.html

[Cody Tetachuk]

This is why it's such a tragedy for beginners to buy expensive wood to build their first dozen or so rifles. 

BUMMER,  a dozen is more guns than I will build in my lifetime 

[BrightEyes]

Its not over till the fat lady sings, and she don't live here anymore. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've checked out your tutorial before Mike, and enjoyed it just as much the second time through.  It is all good advice and wonderful photographs.  It is as good or better than any publication I've ever seen...maybe 'cause it's the way I approach gunbuilding too!!

[A.Merrill]

ted     Your first gun, excited and anxious to get it done, right. Well that will cause you to make mistakes. Finnish each part of the gun before you move on to the next. With said lets start over. The barrel looks canted get it level in the stock, it is very important that is. If left like it is it will cause the lock plate to kick out at the bottom. Now with that done, lets go back to the lock. Put some inleting black on the bolster of the lock, place it back in the stock, press it against the barrel. Now take it back out, the bolster MUST make full contact with the barrel, if it dose not, reinlet lock. It may be hard to believe how important this is, but this effects the architecture of the hole gun. GET IT RIGHT. Now if the barrel was canted, you should have had to reinlet the lower part of the lockplate. Check your bolster again for full contact, VERY INPORTANT. The wood outside the lockplate should be flat, this is the face of the molding. Ok, now draw your molding around the lock, it should be no more than 3/16 of an inch wide above an below the lockplate ( I'm not talking about in front or to the rear of the plate, look at some pic's) leave out the beaver tail for now, that is a different molding. Lets start on the under side of the stock where you have plenty of wood to work with, this will get you use to doing this part of the job, before you do the area above the lock where you have less wood to work with.  With the line drawed for the lock molding, now draw another line 3/16 in. out to the side of the trigger plate, extend this line on out so it is as long as the lock molding line. With rasps and files, remove the wood  between the two lines, file this area flat, yes flat, BUT stay between the lines. As you remove wood here you will notice the closer you get to the front and rear of the lock molding you won't be able to flatten the wood, that's good. Now with that area flat go back to the top, draw a line about 1/8 in. out along the tang. Same thing, file the wood flat between the lines, DO NOT file past the lines. There should be no hump of wood in back of the moldings in these areas, like in the first pic. The only place there is wood in back of the molding is the short area in front and rear of the lock. Now shape molding to the rear and front area using round files and chisels. Then carve the beaver tail, this will set lower than the lock molding and about 1/32 in above the wrist. If something happens that your lock is to high above the wood you can file off some of the bolster, be careful and TAKE YOUR TIME. You will do allot better job, RIGHT GUYS    Good Luck.    AL

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  I have said it many times before.  rpierce's comment made me do a little digging into that nosecap.  When I frist made the nosecap the front of it was real ugly.  Huge gaps, so I made a piece to fill in the gaps.  It looked better than before so I left it to clean it up later.  Which I forgot to do.  It seems when I fitted the Shim I raised the barrel out of it's channel slightly, and one side of the nosecap is slightly shorter than the other.  It can be fixed whether you think it can or not.  I don't veiw anything as impossible until I try it and fail.  Fail in my eye's not your's  Mistakes I have made. Mistakes I will make. 99% I will fix.  The only person I have to please on this rifle is me.

  I appreciate the advice given.  I have used most of it and I am grateful.  I  WILL NOT GIVE UP ON THIS BUILD PERIOD END OF DISSCUSSION.


   RICH

[LURCHWV@BJS]

ANY BETTER?





   RICH

[Leatherbelly]

  quote: I'd not touch another tool until you get an accomplished builder to guide your work as you try to get the most you can out of this stock.  Salvaging a build when there have been some mistakes is 3x as hard and requires 3x the skill and mastery as doing a simple build. end quote
 Rich,
   I gotta hand it to ya, but you've got more determination and bigger balls then a prize Herferd bull. No kidding! If I were you,I'd do my best to finish this one,but get some hands on help, and then pick an easier rifle that will be a joy to shoot. Maybe a good parts set(kit). I'm not a builder but have had a little "hands on" experience, but very little. Rich pretty well nails it tho,get help!

[chuck-ia]

I am a beginner just like you, I am on my 3rd gun from a blank and still don't have the courage to take on a beavertail, maybe I will get my courage up and try it on the trade gun I am working on now. I have a good friend who builds beautiful guns, carving, builds his own patch boxes, who doesn't do the beavertails till the gun is allmost finished. Just curious, how deep is the lock plate inletted? I have allso found the books, gunsmith of grenville county and building a penn. rifle to be very helpfull. chuck

[Mike Brooks]

I  WILL NOT GIVE UP ON THIS BUILD PERIOD END OF DISSCUSSION.


   RICH

Hey, knowing when to quit and start over is an admirable ability. I have done it before, it's no reflection on your ability. You have learned alot from this attempt, think of the pitfalls you will be able to avoid because of your experience with this gun. All you'll need is another piece of wood.
 

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  Please don't take this the wrong way, I only paid $80 for this stock. To just stop on it and get another piece would be the same as throwing away $80.  I've done that too many times in the past.  As for getting help,  I have to find someone will to work around my schedule.  I have 2 weekends a month and 2 sets of three days inn the middle of the week.  The last person I asked said no because he was afraid I'd take business away from him.  Even though I told him I was only building for myself.

   I've already made plans to go to something easier for my next build.  Each mistake I make on this teaches me something.  I wish I had someone near me now.  In the future there will be someone within 30miles of me but that is in the future.  I also hope to catch a seminar in Lodi OH at the Trade Fair Oct,9&10th. I will have my mongral rifle there.  It may be ugly but it's a pruebred Mongral and It paid for. 

  I apologize for my outburst last night.  Decided to go shootn today get rid of some tension. Step back then fix something I did.


            Rich

[FL-Flintlock]

Rich,

The only way to learn is "just do it".  If you screw it up, it's part of the learning process.  I've taught the occasional welding class for years and let me assure you, I've yet to see anyone run a v-up or o/h bead without going through the process of having everything drop out all over them numerous times before they get the hang of it and there are many people who never get "in the groove" but some others have one or two failures and are off and running without further incident.

The most common statement I hear/see when it comes to putting a tool to a gunstock is, "I'm afraid of messing it up."  If you're nervous, you'll never learn and it doesn't matter if it's putting a chisel to wood, a stick electrode into a v-up weld joint or whatever analogy you like, you've got to get past the "nervous" and just do it but pay attention and learn from your mistakes.  It looks to me like you've got this stock down below minimum, no matter if that's the case or not, keep going, correct all the mistakes you can because it's all part of the learning process.  If you end-up re-stocking that parts set, so be it, don't let it get you down, we've all done it and still do it from time to time ... distractions are your enemy, if you must stop or get distracted, take a minute to write yourself a note and don't do anything again until you've gone back over everything to make sure you know exactly where you left off.  BTW, don't toss the stock if you've got it buggered beyond fixing, there's still plenty of uses for smaller pieces.  If you have to, laminate another piece of wood over the lock area and go back at it until you get it figured out.  You can watch someone else do it for years but until you get in there and do it yourself.

Another thing, don't start with the easy stuff, start with the hardest thing first, when you learn the hardest part first, everything else will just fall into place.  I use the same method in my welding classes, while everyone else wastes time and money starting people out in the flat position, I start them on v-up because once they learn v-up, the rest is much easier and it greatly reduces the time and waste.

$80 for the stock is very little to invest in a learning experience which is why I say, keep going even if you've got to glue more wood on and try again until you get the hang of it.  The learning experience is much the same as R&D work, no matter how much pre-planning, engineering and numbers crunching you put into something, when it gets to the R&D phase, you've got to accept that no matter how much time and money you have invested in something, the first test piece can end up in the cull pile in a heartbeat but there is much to learned from failure and it's just the cost of learning. 

Mark

[flehto]

I agree that a  knowledgeable "partner" is now req'd because going further in the wrong direction really just gets a person more  lost. As an aside, how many books have been studied? RCA vols. 1&2  should have given some idea how lock panels and wrists are formed and should be #1 on a beginning builder's list. At the point that you're at, starting afresh w/ new wood, a different mindset, a study of the RCA books and a mentor should start you on the right path. Also at this point, a precarved stock would be an "eye opener" seeing the lock panels and wrist would be fairly close to finish size. Good luck however you proceed....Fred

[Mike Brooks]

To just stop on it and get another piece would be the same as throwing away $80.

You have had more than $80 worth of learning on that stock....time to move on to a fresh start. Get a hard piece of wood next time too, it will really help.

[bgf]

From what these guys say (and I would trust their opinions), you need a new stick of wood.  First, though, I would try to extract every bit of training potential this one has.  It may be too late for the beavertails, but surely there's other mistakes to make .

Focus on the process and not the product -- it's a roughly 250 year old design, nothing urgent in finishing it.  You'll just want to build another when you finish, anyway .

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Lurch, have you read any publications on building longrifles?  Have you read for example, Buchele's, Shumway's, and Alexander's Recreating the American Longrifle?  How about the Grunsmith of Grenville County?  Or even Dixon's the Art of Building ...Longrifle?  I'm taking a chance on sounding cruel, but if you have read any of these, I can't see how you're following the advice given in them.  Mike Brooks tutorial is actually all you need.
I taught art in highschool and found it difficult to get students to draw what they saw, rather than what they thought they saw.
With a longrifle, there is a sequence that sets the builder up for each successive step.  To jump ahead at any stage compromises this.  I offer this as constructive comments and do not mean in any way to discourage or belittle your effort.
I'm jumping all over the place here, but another helpful aid might be some of the plan drawings that suppliers have. They often show cross sectional views that help explain how to proceed.  Unless you know how it is supposed to look, it is unlikely that you're going to happen upon it by chance.